Producing : Short films & money by Ethan Frome

They get made into Features. See 'Buried' 2010. One film makers who wanted to make a one person, one location Short.

Of course there are ways to make money from short films. There are a number of specialist sales agents that will handle short films. Some are listed here: http://film.britishcouncil.org/resources/shorts-animation-experimental/s.... Then there are a variety of pay to view sites. Perhaps the best way to ensure you make money for your short is by getting others to pay for the making of it. Either through crowd funding, product placement, or sponsorship. In uk there are even government tax incentives... Of course most people use short films as a training ground, and as a place to meet with and work with like minded people until they have a film good enough to be used as a calling card at the more prestigious festivals.

And hers another list. http://nofilmschool.com/2016/10/massive-list-international-distributors-...

Michael Wearing, how many of the shorts you produced or otherwise worked on were sold?

Of course J D Hartman "sold" is not the original question. The question was how do you make money on short films. I can honestly say I have not lost money on any film I produced. I have seven IMDb producer credits. I have made "direct" money on three of those, ranging from £500 to £1000. And received much corporate work "indirect money" from my involvement in shorts. With my latest short currently in post I reduced an initial budget of £25,000. To £2,200. and in doing so accepted that I would not make any direct money, however i have greatly

Increased my standing as a corporate company, getting spreads in two local papers, and over 100 extras who now all know more about my company. I have little doubt this will result in "indirect money"

No Vitaly the question was "How do you make money from short films? ". There's a subtle difference

No, there isn't a subtle difference, shorts are a calling card, an example of your skills. If well produced, skillfully shot and populated with actors who have honed their craft, they may leed to "real" paying work.

Amazon has become a good outlet for shorts. You can handle them like PPV and I've even seen some shorts in Prime. That said, you'll need to drive traffic to them.

Jon Bonnell and how much money are they making per view?

Actually, it's not a matter of debate or opinion, it's an etched- in- stone- fact shorts can make money. I've had 3 short films make money. There are countless other examples of shorts that made money, quite a bit of money actually, like the short by Peter Sollet 5 Feet High & Rising which became Raising Victor Vargas. In the book 'Swimming Upstream: A Lifesaving Guide to Short Film Distribution' Sollet said his 20K short turned a profit, but years back I read an article that stated because of the healthy short film market he accessed via Clermont-Ferrand & having a sales rep he made several hundred grand selling to various Euro TV outlets that paid by the minute, he used it as seed money for Raising Victor Vargas. It's alluded to here in the forward to former Sundance shorts programmer Roberta Munroe's book, "5 Feet High & Rising became Raising Victor Vargas, Cashback became cash- back."

I can't detail all the behind the scenes machinations of that film, but I can detail the ways my own shorts became profitable. I'll start w/ the first: Back Home Years Ago: The Real Casino. http://jfafilms.com/films_therealcasino.html As you'd guess it's about the real wiseguys from Chicago who were the basis for the Scorsese mob epic, Casino. It started as a short 7 min piece of John & Janet Pierson's (she runs SxSW now) old show Split Screen which was on IFC/Bravo. They gave me some $ to do the piece and I used some of my own, but the story clearly was more involved than just a 7 min short. The longest version lives here on Amazon Prime http://www.amazon.com/Real-CASINO-Special-Bonus/dp/B008PBCT0A & Fandor https://www.fandor.com/films/back_home_years_ago

After it aired on IFC I cut a 24 min version that hit the Fest circuit and got bought by the Chicago PBS affiliate WTTW and aired there. Then I cut a more web friendly 14 min version that got bought by a shorts company called Hypnotic and streamed online, then sold to Euro cable, Airlines, few other outlets. Then hypnotic sold their library of shorts to WellSpring (Steve Bannon owned it at the time, go figure:) then eventually Shorts International bought the library, gave me more money for an advance and sold on their various ShortsHD channels, etc. Because I'd cut so many versions and had a lot of out takes, etc. I had enough material to release a DVD that eventually got onto Netflix. In addition, the 14 min version was bought by TF 1 for the French release of Casino. http://www.commeaucinema.com/dvd/casino,1725 Then of course the DVD itself sells on Amazon and as well as downloads, etc. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00013RBPI/ref=cm_sw_r_tw_dp_x_ME3Fzb6W8MYPR Overall, I'd say I've made 4x5 times the budget over the years and money comes in still both monthly & quarterly from various deals. True, it's a unique situation, but it's a short that's def made a nice amount of $.

Next, Warriors of the Discotheque: The Starck Club Documentary short version (which became a feature) http://jfafilms.com/films_warriors_of_the_discotheque.html. It too had a built in advantage 'cause it had a pre-existing avid fan base. The Starck Club was a super hot Club in the 80's in Dallas that was legendary designer Philippe Starck's first foray in the US and it was actually legal to buy MDMA aka ecstasy there, people would put it on their credit cards. The DEA stepped in and made it a category 1 drug on July 1, 1985. This, despite NOT really understanding anything about MDMA... It wouldn't be an understatement to say The Starck Club was not only ground zero for the popularization of ecstasy, the whole rave scene, but even lit the fuse for the entire Billion dollar, DJ driven, EDM (Electronic Dance Music) scene. The short traveled the Fest circuit including Hollyshorts, and I sold the DVD's online and via amazon https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002OSWUA4/ref=cm_sw_r_tw_dp_x_3N3FzbA9MMNRA as well as VOD https://www.amazon.com/Warriors-Discotheque-Starck-Club-Documentary/dp/B... I basically doubled the initial investment and used screenwriting money to finance the Feature which lives here http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GG0MR5E#_swftext_Swf and here http://www.fandor.com/films/warriors_of_the_discotheque as well as a myriad other spots. Again, I admit it's a unique case in which the built-in audience has made both short and feature pretty successful. At this point the feature has made 3 times it's budget and still coming in monthly due to Prime and Fandor. The short sells once in a while but is included on the DVD too, so that pretty much negates any new sales.

The last film, The Early Inauguration, you can find here http://jfafilms.com/films_shorts.html

here https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01HST08VG#_swftext_Swf and here http://bitpixtv.com/video/the-early-inauguration/ Now, on this one I made money essentially by having spent nothing on the short 'cause Fandor helped raise money for it via it's KS page (scroll down) here https://www.kickstarter.com/pages/Fandor & here https://www.fandor.com/filmmakers/director-joseph-alexandre-1671 But, it was easily the most miserable experience I've had in filmmaking. I despise these campaigns, the web equivalent of banging around w/ a tin cup. (I know some folks are able to make it all exciting and inclusive, but despite my best efforts it just felt like begging:) If I'd been part off this collective http://filmmakermagazine.com/93448-fandor-to-finance-original-shorts-pro... I'd have really made $. By the looks of one film, one of the filmmakers spent about $2500 on the film and pocketed 8K. Anyhow, in my case, the money that's come in from Prime has been pure profit, but if I'd had to have financed the short out of pocket, I'd still be in the hole. However, there are still a few deals on the horizon, and I feel confident that in next year or so the film will be in the theoretical black if I'd have had to finance myself.

Hey joesph

How much Time from starting your script to finished movie to a paycheck? Just curious at the average Time (months or years) .

Thanks

Good question. It hasn't really been a kind of progressive step by step kinda deal on all the films. For the two docs, actually all 3 films, the idea had kinda ruminated for awhile cause of my personal experience. With The Real Casino I worked in some mob joints as a kid, more here: http://gangstersinc.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-story-behind-the-documen... I pitched the concept (as I was working on outline) for the Doc to John Pierson in the late Summer, got a check from IFC in Jan to shoot, then got first money back from distribs about 2 years after we shot. First decent check came from Chicago PBS affiliate, then 6 months later Hypnotic.

With the Starck film, I'd snuck in as a kid few times when we just moved to Dallas. It's an experience I didn't forget. I started shooting interviews in the Fall, as well as scripting, just about a year later had money come in from Amazon after going to multiple Fests including USA Dallas, Palm Springs, HollyShorts, New Filmmakers, etc.

In the case of The Early Inauguration, I was a Pol Sc major at Marquette University and always thought about what that first 'intro' to the office is like. Finally, banged out a script in August '14, cast it and rehearsed for months till shoot in May 2015, got first money back from about a year later (2 years after script about.) The first $ actually came in weeks before shoot in via KS.

The most kind of clean progression if you will was my first feature, bizarre pos called Psychotropic Overload: https://www.fandor.com/films/psychotropic_overload and https://www.indieflix.com/film/psychotropic-overload-12789 and https://www.amazon.com/Psychotropic-Overload-David-Wittman/dp/B001RXMRBY/ I wrote the script in a few weeks, started shooting couple months later, first money came in 1 year after completion of the film.

Thank you for the write up. Excellent info. Keep making movies. You are already ahead of many. Best of success!

Thanks man, same to you!

So happy to be part of STAGE 32 platform, an encouraging insight into the entertainment industry. still reading comments preparing myself.

The question is do shorts make money? They do! Now it has to be a short narrative? Ok I'll let u know just how much a year from now after few new deals I just signed w Euro TV.

Now, the question is am I making a living as a filmmaker? Or as a screenwriter? I am, if you must know, shall I post some 1099?s lol. As illustrated in a point earlier, The Real Casino lead to a relationship w Joe Carnahan and this:

https://www.google.com/amp/variety.com/2005/film/news/helmer-high-on-dru...

Since this deal (I got in the WGAw and the deal paid low 6 figures, was never made) I've always had a writing deal here & there and made a living off of it. Now, will the question change to how good a living? Ok, I have a home I live in in the outskirts of LA. And before some big screenwriting $, I had a few 10K months from The Real Casino & little writing deals. So, why did I do crowdfunding for last short? Cause the company Fandor said I should for experience & they were gonna back an episodic based on it. It was a marketing thing, but they all got fired & now new regime is headed by Larry Aiden & Gail Gendler.

What else? Bottom line, people have & can make money on a short film! Read up on Jim Cummings & Thunder Road, clearly you must have cognitive impairment since you conveniently ignored the other prior examples listed like Peter Sollet

I mean your condescension is amazing - it's just a hobby? How would you deign to know that? Not a single fucking produced film I can buy anywhere but lecture me about hobbies, Mr Tarkovsky! Please, do so. You, personally, embody why I don't bother w these stupid sites 'cause there's always some troll w virtually no resume who's gonna be the 'expert'. Go ahead bro, you're the expert on Stage 32, congrats! Lol

Oh ok, thanks for the advice, good to know if my skins a little thicker I can 'make' it like you have. How come I can't purchase any of these films you've produced? How come if you're so well versed in the foreign sales market & so forth you're so ignorant of the fact, especially in Europe, there's a tremendous market for short content & there has been for decades. I mean, it's pretty shocking you'd be so fully unaware of what outlets like ZDF, Canal Plus, TF 1, and Channel 4 pay on a per minute basis? Come on, Vitaly, fill us in on what an average sale to Grenada TV was? Of course, you'd have been doing this on a daily basis. How is it possible you didn't know short films couldn't make money they were paying few hundred Euro per minute. How could you not know that?

Fact: you seemingly have 1 produced as yet undistributed feature w 6 "upcoming" credits. That hardly makes you an expert on distribution. There's no shortage here of thick skin my friend, I'm calling u out cause you come across as an arrogant, pompous know it all w little in way of resume to back it up. If that assertion is incorrect then please accept my earnest, heartfelt apology. Or, simply shut me up by putting up links to the film's you've produced! That's a thought.

And btw, YES short films can make money, period!

Dude is the issue you can't read? The title of the thread is do shorts make money? They can! I've clarified I've turned them into features as well. Did you miss that? 2K & making 4K? Where'd get those numbers? Did you think having my film on the actual Casino DVD from TF 1 paid just a few grand? I've already Made that clear. Dealt w all the Guilds on various features, just like your one effort that can't be found anywhere.

Go ahead please turn on the light and tell us about your sales to all the foreign outlets you dealt w on daily basis: BBC, Channel 4, TF 1, Arte France, ZDF, and how u sold ur film to Amazon, iTunes, Hulu, Netflix, etc.

One half credit of a film that may never see the light of day. What kind of pre sales & deal Memos did u get for Bradley Snedeker, Cory Reiner, and Angelique Pretorious? I'm curious, walk us thru it!

I'm still waiting on some links to your vast experience & resume. What was the name of your sales company?

Lastly, I respect your ability to make a 'real' film so to speak. That's an accomplishment no doubt. However, the rest of your verbiage belies an individual w very little knowledge of the Film Industry & domestic & foreign film sales in general. Maybe that's not the case, and you possess more expertise that indicated here. You may indeed be a multi millionaire. Most likely from Nat Gas sales in the Caspian basin, not film sales. As demonstrated by the willfull ignorance of facts. What are u working for the Trump cabal? You have alternative facts?

The fact is a short film by Chris Marker called La Jette has prob brought in 4 times the value of your whole net worth. He's a short I worked on for a couple of my best friends, one Produced, the other Directed. The budget is 5 times your lil feature, w a crew of 100 plus.

https://youtu.be/TTYR-7vLU9s

Is it just fake news? I'm just making it up? Is the light coming on yet? Are there more alternative facts to sift thru? Lol! Nice story, bro!

Mama Di Pompeii always said, leave a sleeping dog lie, but what's the fun in that:) If you were a tad more polite, kid, I'd do so... But, Hmmm, how do I say this delicately, w/ as much discretion as possible: you're a liar, bro! That's bull! Complete baloney! You've offered absolutely ZERO evidence to support this assertion: "I made it already in that biz, pal. 25 years as a successful film distributor/buyer for major foreign territories, made tons of money in the past buying and selling, wheeling and dealing, indies and studio level films in the range of 1 mill to 250 million."

Prove it! No agent, no manager, no Ent Attorney, no Publicist! No Entertainment Attorney, how can u not have an Ent Attorney? How is that? How's that even possible if you're a, "successful film distributor/buyer for major foreign territories, made tons of money in the past buying and selling, wheeling and dealing, indies and studio level films in the range of 1 mill to 250 million." Where are the news links to the deals? Where's the evidence? One credit and not a single web link to support anything else you've said, matter of fact you're such a big time baller you post things like this on Stage 32 job board: "Everything is ready for presentation to qualified (sofisticated sic) equity investor. That's what we need. That last push. If you are raising funds for movies or capable to finance movies yourself and want to learn all the ropes of this business including production and distribution this might be a way for you to get involved with us on this low budget project and advance into a bigger budget movies.... Maybe you know that bankable talent and can make a private introduction for us and we can make that key attachment, maybe you know some parties with $$$$$ who are looking for a chance to get involved with films, love all that glamor, all that smoke and mirrors, and would love to hang out on sets with stars and walk red carpets. Be creative. This is how you will get on board and jump start your career. Now go and bring us some value."

LoL! The big shot financier looking for Money on Stage 32:) lol

lol

No, the finance expert doesn't go to Graham Taylor @ WME to help package, no sir he doesn't talk to Cassian Elwes, no he goes to Stage 32... hmm, does that sound like bullshit? Yeah, it does. Nice one tho, good for a few laughs, thanks!

This is what a real sales agent looks like:

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1088848/?mode=desktop

This is what the poser looks like

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm6512623/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1

Real deal

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1088848/?mode=desktop

Poser

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm6512623/?

Any questions? Lol

Ya know what, I'm calling you out further! This statement is bullshit & I can prove it: "By the way my last feature film with real SAG actors (check it out on IMDB pro if you have that pay access of course) which I produced on a decent budget just been sold through my SA to China and we probably made more money on that single deal than you made on your entire library of shorts/documentaries. Not probably, definitely." There's no way that film sold 'big' to China, no way- it's way too plot & dialogue heavy, no where near the scale= I MEAN SCALE- MORE THAN 3 PEOPLE IN THE FRAME- of action needed for a Chinese market. It's looks like a nice thriller that coulda been made easily for 50K or less, def less, big time deal maker! It doesn't pay to bullshit 'cause guess what Vassili? I know some folks over at your sales rep company Fairway Film Alliance. Kirk Harris is a principle @ FFA and I've known Kirk almost 2 decades, he's tight w/ Peter Baxter who helped start Slamdance w/ Dan Mirvish, was a boxer back in the day from the South Bay! Wouldn't be any trouble at all to shoot 'ol Kirk an email... Wow, bro! Your ego just wouldn't allow you to acknowledge there are some things about this biz you don't know... Just had to puff up and spout a buncha bs. You even really live in the Marina? Jib? Via Marina? lol, yeah, nice story bro! lol!

I do love a good pissing contest ... I do believe we have a winner :)

LoL! I deserve that:) lol I - just - couldn't- help- myself! I swore off these boards a decade ago for this exact reason:) lol

Hey Joseph

Are you still in contact with Joe Carnahan?

Joseph--Yeah it's hard not to get sucked in. I do my best to ignore 90% of the crazy factor. But sometimes it's just fun yanking chains. :)

LoL, yes indeed it is:)

Dan, would love to bro, but he's a tough character just to pin down. I heard from him first time in awhile, he's shooting something in Calgary but not exactly sure what? I've always been a huge fan of his talent, and while I understand there's a lot $ in Bad Boys 3, Blacklist TV show, etc I really believe Joe has epic PTA type talent and would love to see him get back to something like Narc, or even his version of White Jazz woulda been pretty awesome. Actually, I think our project together would've been fuckin' totally killer! Imagine the tonal shift of the world of Terence Malick's Days of Heaven going to the sprawling intensity of City of God! That's what I feel we had (still have) and coulda set his career on a different trajectory.

Scroll down to bottom of this list...

http://theplaylist.net/5-movies-joe-carnahan-should-have-made-20100611/

LoL, is that it Vittorio? that all u got? lol, don't you know you keep pissing on your leg:)

Well, the F, like many European Catholics: Italians, French, Irish of whom I descend from, it stands for Francis a la Francis Ford Coppola, Francis Albert Sinatra, Robert Francis Kennedy, Joseph Francis Xavier Armaugh, and the kicker Michael Francis Rizzi Corleone... (I'm sure film buff that you are Vassili, you have no clue who the last guy is...)

You also know as much about clothes as you do Film Sales:) It's a Calvin Klein suit, the Brioni was at home, and cravat by Armani... worth more than your tux, fedora, and anything else your wearing in those imdb pics. (Notice your pics are at the premiere's of all those million dollar pics you sold... oh wait...:) Thanks for the laughs Vlady! lol shoooot!

wtf a troll on stage 32?

Lol!

Hey guys! Distributors are busy and so are you. Instead of targeting individual distributors upload to FilmHub.com which is a VOD marketplace that many distributors browse 24/7. Your short could end up on mobile devices in China, on airlines... many many possibilities. Once you create an account you can log in anytime and see what's happened with your short :) There are zero upfront fees only a 20% revenue share when they find you money. Also... (here is a hack) if you go through FilmFreeway for a limited time period you get to keep 100% of revenue for the first year. Be sure to enter the code FILMFREEWAYPROMO to keep 100% revenue for the first year!

What if we're already on some of the platforms, do they sill try and get you on others?

Sorry, been gone a while: Amazon numbers on the TVOD are set by you when you upload. Amazon takes their percentage, you get the rest. On the Prime side of things rates are based on a variable from $0.06 to $0.15 per hour viewed in the US. Prices are different per territory around the world. Prices are subject to change.

Yeah I have quite a few films on Prime... the pay kinda sux:) unless you're in a big fest and they really want ur film they give u a much better rate in that case.

No, Prime rates are fixed for everyone. They don't adjust and the are posted within the portal.

Yes they do ask Ted Hope who runs Amazon Studios and used to used to run Fandor. When they really want a film that's hot at a Fest, they offer more premium rates for prime. Just like Netflix offers diff deals for streaming...

https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon-video-direct-self-distribution-pl...

"a program touted as "Film Festival Stars," AVD (not to be mistaken with Amazon Studios, which acquires films for theatrical/streaming and produces projects in house) will provide Sundance 2017 titles that join by February 28 a publishing bonus as well as enhanced royalty rates.

The non-recoupable, onetime bonus is $100,000 for titles that were in this year's US dramatic or premieres categories at the fest. It's $75,000 for US documentaries and documentary premieres. And $25,000 for titles that were in the world dramatic, world documentaries, NEXT, Spotlight, Kids, Midnight, or New Frontier sections.

Only Film Festival Stars receive upfront money for uploading to AVD.

This year's Sundance titles that join AVD also will get enhanced royalties — 30 cents per hour of views in the US, 12 cents per hour for international views."

https://www.indiewire.com/2018/02/amazon-video-direct-lowers-royalty-rat...

new rates won't affect Stars program Amazon confirmed to IndieWire that these new rate changes will not effect their Festival Stars program. In an effort to lure new films from top festivals, like Sundance and SXSW, the Festival Stars program offers cash bonuses (reaching as high as $150,000 and $200,000 at Sundance 2018) for festival titles to sign an exclusive two-year subscription streaming (SVOD) deal with AVD. Those films are also given a special royalty rate, which domestically is currently $0.20/hour (down from the $0.30/hour offered in 2017). Amazon told IndieWire the films in the Festival Star program are locked into their initial rates and will not be effected by the new tiering rates.

im sorry to announce that im swiftly disintegrating myself from the industry into a more laid back and less stressful due to age and related health reasons.Thanks a lot for your understanding!