Composing : How can I improve my composing skills ?? by Alistair Melville

Here's what you do...you find someone who writes for strings in a way that you would like to do; someone who speaks with a harmonic language that you desire and then you ask them for lessons. It's as easy as that.

Alistair, Rent, buy, or DL "Score" on iTunes ASAP.

My suggestions may unorthodox to some or too conservative for other:

1. Listen to and mimic the music you like - doesn't have to be just soundtracks and doesn't have to be current. My favorite composers are Shaiman and Silvestri but I am also a big fan and listen to Goldsmith and Bernstein from the 40s - 70s.

Don't just listen - TRANSCRIBE - try to write the string sections yourself and listen to how close you can get.

Now also listen and try to transcribe some orchestra and string sections that back pop singers. Some of my favorite to listen to are the Frank Sinatra tracks that were backed by Nelson Riddle. Here is a good one to start with - try to transcribe this one (just love those horn harmonies :) ):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvLTsJdX0V4

And by the way, one of the best orchestra scoring/arranging books ever written imho is by Nelson Riddle

https://www.amazon.com/Arranged-Nelson-Riddle/dp/0897249542/ref=sr_1_1?i...

2. Read scores - film and classical. Also read Jazz lead sheets and jazz big band charts. There is just something different about following the melody and chord voicing of jazz that you can't get with classical, pop, or country. If you can't read scores - learn how to do it. Not only does this give you a feel of how four staffs/groups are scored together (sometimes more if more than one note is played in a section by separate groups or double/triple stopped) but it also allows you to learn all the things a single string instrument or a section of instruments can do. There is more than just notes and velocities/dynamics. One of the first books I purchased when I started off learning how to compose for strings:

https://www.amazon.com/Music-Notation-Crescendo-Book-Gardner/dp/08008545...

Its a 40 year old book and I still think it is relevant but any notation book will have similar information.

3. While this score is not film related, the teacher I worked with for film composing highly recommended it. At a minimum try to follow the score as you listen to the music. You get even more out of it if you actually try to study and understand various sections. Again, while not a film score it is ALL ABOUT painting pictures and telling a story:

(there is so much string action in this piece you won't know where to look at next)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXy50exHjes

I normally look for scores at:

https://imslp.org/wiki/Pictures_at_an_Exhibition_(Mussorgsky%2C_Modest)

But unless I missed it, these are only the original piano scores not the full orchestra arrangement of Ravel. I have the PDF for that which I downloaded from this site in 2014 when it was still available (it's public domain). You can PM me if you want it.

4. Many of us start the same way - we learn for strings by (a) learning to play a a string instrument/violin ourselves (I spent 3 semesters learning violin) - you don't have to be great - it's about living with the natives AND

(b) write string quartets. First listen to the many from the father of string quartets - Haydn and then Mozart. My favorite first four string instrument piece to listen to and study is the string quartet version of the Bach Orchestral Suite 3 Gavottes 1 & 2. It it is a wonderful combination of melody, harmony, counter-melody and inner voicings. Nothing fancy - just great sounds.

There are many full orchestra versions - the string reduction is harder to find. Here is one of the string reductions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFHjKYt34Bwhttp://www.free-scores.com/download-sheet-music.php?pdf=58958#(I couldn't find a free copy of the second Gavotte but I have both if you PM me)

5. To use or break the rules you should learn them first. I highly recommend you go through the four semesters of music theory and ear training and then you will understand the basic rules. You may also want to consider a semester or two of Jazz theory as well as it augments what you learn in conventional theory which is more imho of diatonic four part harmony.

Guys that is some great feedback ...enough to keep me going for at least 12 months. Thank you all for taking the time to point me in some great directions. I will look into and listen to them all over the next few weeks and months. Hi Andrew its strange you mention Hollywood Strings by EW. I happen to have the diamond edition so will start working with that immediately . Hi Karl will also DL SCORE and work my way through that also. Hi Linwood I might give John Williams a call one of these days and start pestering him as I love his string melodies very much, Dances With Wolves in particular !! Joel some brilliant suggestions there I will certainly tackle them as and when time is available and when my sight reading is more up to scratch. Lots to work on so thank you all very much. Hey Linwood do you need a composers assistant ...laughter !!

I think Dances was John Barry. Williams is a monster isn't he!?! He raised the bar too high for me. lol You can reach just about anyone you want online these days. I'm always surprised when I find myself talking to one of my heroes on FB or someplace. HAHAHA...I wish I had enough work to where I could pass some on to someone for extra help. I'm of the mindset that if we don't help each other then no one will help. So know that if there's anything that I may ever help you with or if there's a question I might be able to answer I'm just a friend who's a email away.

Linwood you are quite correct, my apologies I had no idea it was John Barry. I also love his music and Born Free is one of my favorite songs of all time. I think it was Matt Monro who sang the song with the most exquisite voice I have ever heard from a male vocal of that time. Yes John Williams is just on another level - pure melodic brilliance. Coming back to John Barry when he passed away I was moved to compose a simple piece of music that reminded me of his wonderful soaring scores. Its very badly orchestrated as it was one of the first pieces I ever composed but you can listen here if you have a spare minute or 2. Thank you again Linwood for your kind advice and I will keep in touch for sure.

Very nice tribute to JB, Alistair!

Your most welcome thank you for taking the time to listen. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

You too. It's a mix day for me here and that's pretty close to a day off. :)

I second the vote for Adler and for looking at/reading through scores. Also, this book was a total game changer for my midi life (often have it open next to me whilst working): https://www.amazon.co.uk/Acoustic-MIDI-Orchestration-Contemporary-Compos...

One of the best ways to learn to write for an instrument is to sit down with a player, ask your questions, and get them to show you things. If you don't know any string players drop me a line and perhaps we can arrange to have a session over Skype as I do a fair amount of violin session work and teaching.

Also, you're in Great Malvern?! I'm in Birmingham. Absolutely love Malvern, regularly work there and come over to play in the hills. Beautiful place.

Hey Joanna wonderful to have a fellow composer so close by !! Thank you also for the wonderful tips and pointers ...boy do I have my work cut out for me !! Yes I am between Great Malvern and Worcester. Let me know when you are next down my way and we can meet up and bring your violin too ...smile ...I compose for violin and piano sometimes...but I only play piano

Will definitely check out your book suggestion. Many thanks !!

Joanna has a great idea. Get players (often small ensembles), to play a piece of yours live and then ask for comment and critique of your score. If you are taking classes, these ensembles often come to classes before a performance to give a 'master class'.

Here are two examples -

1. I always wanted to learn how to score a fiddle piece. So I wrote one for a violin player (who wasn't a fiddler) to hear what it sounded like. I then asked for her feedback and also got score feedback from a fiddling group on Facebook. Boy was I was way off on my first attempt but it was a great learning experience.

https://youtu.be/5lPv-bOY_rA

2. Then I was asked to write a piece for a saxophone quartet. One of the things I realized is that real professional players can handle much more difficult piece than I thought as long as the score is readable and 'sensible'

https://youtu.be/6Bv17gYtHnI

3. Finally, about 10 years ago, I realized that the way I was scoring for harp (other than the built-in 'gliss's that I was using) was making it sound more like a guitar than a harp. I hadn't even realized that the harp had pedals. So I took about 4 or 5 harp lessons from a professional who played for the Houston Symphony and Ballet. Then I had her look at, play, one of my harp pieces and give critique.

Whether you score wholly electronic or live or a combination, if you want your sound to be sound realistic, get your music to live professional musicians, and then look at how they notated their parts. In my first few years, I did that with my first string quartet for example and then with big band charts (where I learnt I had better really have a reason to score for drumset since the drummers I gave parts to largely ignored them :) )

Some great little gems there Joel, really enjoyed the violin work and the Quartet for sax was just so well done. It's amazing how you can hear all these different harmonies and counter harmonies going on at once. I think I am starting to get a feel of the instruments I would like to compose for i.e. Cello, Violin and piano with a nice chamber string section in the background. Will try and compose a piece this week and post a link here for some critique. Thank you all again some great spring boards here !!

Yes I score only electronically at the moment using Logic X and some lovely Spitfire Audio String Libraries. For solo instruments I use Emotional Cello and Emotional Violin which really work well together.

I use Spitfire too, Al. A couple months ago I added the expansion packs with the extra mics and I'm really happy with them.

Alistair - one of the reasons I am 'out there' scoring my films using Sibelius is: (1) some day I may want a live version of my score played - in fact, I actually do sometimes adopt the score to local ensembles (typically jazz or big band) here at Houston Community College - don't get access to a full orchestra very often :)

but more importantly (in the short term) -

2. I get to share my score in a readable format with other composers and musicians (hard to do with sequencer/DAW piano rolls). All the sheet music software like Sibelius, Finale and Dorico support the same VSts that DAWs like Logic X do so in the 'worst case' I can embed MIDI commands.

So if you want to follow that SAX piece above and can read sheet music/charts, PM me here for the PDF.

(I have been asking for years here to support PDF attachments as well as pictures - still waiting)

I've got a couple scores posted on my page here at stage32 you can follow along with if you'd like, Al. :)

Hi Linwood, that is wonderful. Did you get the expansion packs for the Chamber Strings Library or the Symphonic Strings Library ? I have been listening to the Chamber Strings Pro version and the detail is just stunning to my uneducated ears ...smile ! Yes I will check out your scores today ...can't wait...this is all so exciting !!

Joel, Yes I see what you are getting at ...to be honest I can't read sheet music but that itself is not a problem. I have a good set of ears and can hear where things go in the score. So what I do is an experiment in Logic using my virtual libraries. Because these libraries are so good now, almost the real thing but not quite I am able to do quite a convincing mock up. What I would like to do here is actually compose a whole score right here on Stage 32 but I am not sure if we are allowed to post mp3's right here in this Lounge thread ?? Can anybody throw a light on this ?? We could call it STAGE 32 A Mock Up !! ha ha . I have come up with a very simple motif already which starts with a solo violin ...only 3 notes and then slowly a cello joins the violin with a counter melody and then ever so gently more and more instruments and sections start to join in ...but it all starts with just those 3 notes ...Ennio Morricone's work comes to mind ...one of my fav composers of all time ...a real master at his craft !!

Talking about having our scores performed by a real orchestra ...Have any of you come across this

https://www.99dollarorchestra.com/

Hey Guys ...I guess there is only one way to find out. If this is not allowed I am very sorry and deeply apologize and will delete immediately. OK here is the first part. I was wrong it is a 6 note motif not 3. The solo violin is the very recently released 'Emotional Violin VI Library' This is only playing one articulation ...to my ears this is very close to the real thing. Is this a good start for my first score ? Is the quality of the production good enough for film. Be brutally honest. I am here to learn from you guys and girls ...smile !!

Sorry forgot to mention this is only the violin part I haven't composed the cello part yet for the countermelody...I guess that is my first question. Does this first part need the cello to come in with the countermelody or should I introduce that in the next part ? I guess it is down to what each of us would do at this point. I guess each one of us would have a slightly different take on this.

Alistar - there is an area off your profile called 'videos/audio' where you can put stuff and you can post in your profile information about your music on soundcloud. In the years I've been here there is a fine line that administrators use between links to music and self promotion. I am not an administrator. If the music link is used to support a topic - especially a learning one as I judge here, then it stays. Otherwise the post is deemed 'self promotion' and moved to the the 'your stage' promotion lounge.

As far as feedback on your piece (with your permission). One of the things I judge composers do when they come from a rhythm section background (especially piano or guitar), is use their electronic instruments like they were playing a piano or guitar - which often means single note melody with diatonic background chords. This is perhaps what you are doing here. So what I suggest is you consider the following: (a) stop the repetition after say the second time and develop your melody in some direction, (b) get some inner voice movement with the instruments above the bass note, (b) start taking advantage of the characteristics of your instruments - perhaps some double stops. Now in the electronic world it can be any two notes (in fact when you do that, it could be two instruments or instrument sections in your score with stems going in the opposite direction). But in the real world, a violin player can not play two notes on the same string - they normally are two notes on the adjacent strings (G4, D5, A5, E6). In fact that notes don't even have to be the same length - fiddlers hold one note on a string while playing multiple notes on adjacent strings. (c) consider things like modulation and varying tempo and different types of string bowing - it does not all have to be legato. In fact you an pizz on some strings, detache on some, and legato on others all at the same time! try it.

Music is a language. Just like any language, if you go to a country and want to get around a mix in, you may not be a fluent speaker or be able to write anything, but you get a real head start by learning the basic understanding and reading skills. So too with music. You can stick with Logix but if you learn the basic skills to be able read and understand music notation, it has to be able to help you in your skills to write melodies, understand chord progression and how to write IDOMATICALLY (not turn the instrument into a keyboard) for the instrument. Consider for example what you do by simple looking at pop and country music chord charts or jazz lead sheets of standards from the "real Books". It doesn't have to be something more complex like a Mozart piano sonata.

Here is something you may want to check out to hear where I was when I got started, the same mistakes I made, and perhaps how I have progressed since then. I started from scratch going back to school 15 years ago in the summer of 2003. I couldn't read or write music and had no idea how to compose, arrange, sequence, add reverb - nothing. I purchased Sonar, Gigastudio (popular sampler at the time), and the Miroslav orchestral sample set. I decided like you to write something totally by ear to experiment with the instruments. So this comes from early summer 2003.

https://soundcloud.com/joelirwin/secluded-beauty

Hi Al, I don't have the Chambers "yet". I bought the extra mics for the complete Symphonic lib...strings, brass, and ww's. The stereo mixes are really nice and weigh in at 350megs rather than a gig or so. It's easier on my old 2009 mac pro. I just listened to your stage32 theme. The opening melody being A...D...E. What you have is fine if that's what you want to say. You could add more harmony and take it in another direction if you wanted....same kind of slow emotional pace and treatment but voiced C F B E A to Bb E F A D to Db G C F B E. That will lead you to other choices that may or may not be more interesting. lol

Hi Joel and Linwood what great feedback ...some great points there for me to work on and have some fun with that's for sure. Over the next week or so I will try all your points and just see what comes out of it ....might try 3 or 4 different sketches just to see how each of your ideas pans out !!

Really enjoyed 'Secluded Beauty ' Joel ...amazing work for your first attempt at composing on the computer. From now on I'll post any links from my Profile page so I don't upset anyone ...smile.

It's endless what you can do with even 3 notes. You can take them or they can take you anywhere. This is just a little 4meg ensemble patch and playing the three notes in just 3 different ways. www.linwoodbell.com/clientdownloads/al.mp3

Alistair/Linwood listen to Antonio Carlos Jobim's works - I know of no other composer in any genre that can do so much with so few melodic notes. Here is a great starting example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rzNLXxo01Q

(BTW here is a great trivia - to my knowledge there are only three composers/musicians in the Western Hemisphere that have international airports named after them - Jobim is one; the other two are Astor Piazzolla and Louis Armstrong)

Linwood and Joel thanks again for your great input. Yes less is more in my book. Jobim was a master song writer and made it sound so good with so few notes. Thank you for the little demo Linwood when I hear it then I can see it if you know what I mean :-)

Speaking of Jobim. Check out what is Jorge does @:10 with the melody B D C# A. Really nice and clever in it's construction. Get it under your fingers and analyze it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdzHxD2ya7U

Composing isn't a skill, it's a talent you have to have. Orchestration is a skill, and there's a lot you can do there. Practise orchestration, and transcription, you'll get much better at it.

Rent, Buy or DL the Documentary: Score. It features Hans Zimmer and a host of other composers showing how they think and compose.