I’m adding a new thread because my last one on this topic was a little too vague. What do you think about treating story and plot as separate narrative elements? I'm talking about the difference between the events that occur in the life of a protagonist (story) versus how those events are included or portrayed in the narrative (plot).
I think they are as separate as character and dialogue. They can’t exist without each other but each can be manipulated independently.
The classic example is Memento: the story is linear, but the plot is a roiling bolognese of story bits. Baccano! jumps between three separate time-lines throughout the series, but the plot unifies them into a single narrative by revealing character and tying up loose ends at the same pace. Pulp Fiction, Sin City, Psycho, Run Lola Run and others all truncate or disrupt the story in some way for the sake of shaping the plot.
Some might say story and plot are separate only when the story requires it, but I think they are always independent of each other. We just don't always see it because we prefer they resemble each other in most cases. What do you guys think?
Not sure if this helps, I myself am learnig as I go along... https://www.writers-online.co.uk/how-to-write/creative-writing/plot-vs-s...
"The king died and then the queen died is a story. The king died and the queen died of grief, is a plot.’" So I would say the PLOT gives your STORY meaning="grief"
3 people like this
Story is not a narrative element, though. That's like saying "chocolate cake is an ingredient." Story - and chocolate cake - are the finished products.
Plot is a narrative element - as are characters, conflict, setting, theme, POV, and tone. Those are the main elements, and each has its own subsets of elements and characteristics.
Best fortunes in your creative endeavors, Stephen!
1 person likes this
The word plot is an old navigation term. On a map you would plot your course. It would be a series of actions to go from A to B. Think of story as the destination.
Kay, as to your original comment, there are indeed people who think gravity separates from mass and can travel in waves. They’re building enormous detectors to see what they can pick up. For everyone else, these are great comments. Keep ‘em comin’.
And Bill, most stories are made of smaller stories the same way most cakes are made of layers of smaller cakes. So, yes, cake is an ingredient.
I said in the original post they can’t exist apart from each other. Rather, I’m arguing they are independent and can be manipulated separately, perhaps in ways people don’t often consider.
Wouldn't that be 'interdependent'?
They are interdependent, but I’m arguing they are by degrees. And I feel the need to clarify this concept was not my idea, for those who think I’m just free-styling. Shklovsky and his contemporaries put this forward 100 years ago, and back then people also thought they were full of it. I found myself agreeing with their approach and wanted to see what the Stage32 crowd thought.
3 people like this
Stephen: actually, chocolate cake consists of the following ingredients: flour, sugar, baking powder, baking soda, cocoa powder, salt, eggs, vegetable oil, sour cream, and vanilla extract - and three drops of liquid habanero concentrate if Dan MaxXx is coming over. :)
Best fortunes in your cake-making endeavors, Stephen!
I’ve read Campbell and McKee and still found value in Shklovsky’s theory. I don’t think he has to be wrong for his successors to be right. But your perspective does provide clarity.
2 people like this
always strange when folks who say they want to make movies would rather study theorists, scholars, screenplay gurus than filmmakers who do it for real. Billy Wilder, Chris Nolan didn't talk about movies - they made movies for a living.
Here's Nolan explaining the structure of Memento. None of this story v plot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67e_jl4flpE
Dan, look at my profile picture. What am I holding and what do you think I’m doing with it?
Yeah, just as in your other thread, I struggle with your 'story vs. plot' theory. The conclusion seems non-sequitur to me as well. You're just further separating parts of a whole. Also, to say "the plot is a roiling bolognese of story bits" in Memento is utterly false, nothing further from the truth. Memento is highly structured. Dan M beat me to the punch, but just watch Nolan explain HOW and WHY he structured the story and the film the way that he did. Nolan tends to write stories circularly, but in Memento its structure is more a storyline folded over itself, like a "hairpin." Watch and learn. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. If we must break down a screenplay's basic structural system from its larger whole down to single beats, then the hierarchy would be: script, acts, plot points, scenes, beats.
I always thought plot was how you tell your story. However I don't waste my time reading about screenwriting so maybe I'm wrong.
To add one more thing, I think this is just a tool to keep in your toolbox. You may never have to use it, but knowing it’s there could help you in a pinch. Like if you finish shooting a movie and the audience hates your protagonist but likes his girlfriend, you can hop into the editing room and (assuming you have ample coverage) emphasize her perspective and essentially make her the protagonist. You have now changed the story without changing the plot and saved your movie without the need for reshoots or ADR.
8 people like this
I've never given the distinction of plot versus story very much thought so I took a tour of the internet to see what pundits had to say on the subject and to be honest it read like the argument about "how many Angels can dance on the Head of a Pin" logic where the premise that something ought to exist drives the dissection of the argument to the point where the original premise becomes lost in the weeds.
The closest I could get to a coherent distinction is a Story is a scenario and the plot is how you tell it. That's an oversimplification, but again, they all tend to start going into the weeds after that. To me, that thinking is like arguing an anecdote is funny and a joke is how you tell it. The real point is can you tell a joke in the first place that makes people laugh. No amount of studying can make you funny... or at least I haven't met anyone who's gone down that path.
For me, I think the more productive approach is exploring Situation and Character. Put an interesting character in an interesting situation. Give the character a Goal. Set up some obstacles. Then the path that takes you to the goal and how the character gets there will be far more interesting than following a regimented plot. You'll still get a story and a plot. You just won't have to hurt your head obsessing over which is which.
Just my 2 cents.