Composing : Technical Question: Vocal/Instrumental Separation by Shane M Wheeler

I've never heard anyone ever give a reason not to record instrumentals and vocals separately. But perhaps I don't understand the question. Vocalists usually sing with the instrumental tracks coming into their headphones, so I'm not sure what the "synching issues" would be. Dynamic range is often controlled by the audio engineer using things like compression. Mixing has to be done whether they are recorded together or separately, because the vocalist and instruments will almost invariably have different mic setups. I'm not an expert, but I could probably give more helpful advice if I had more details of your situation.

Specifically, a short piece was being created for a film I'm working in, with some acoustic guitar and vocals, fairly minimalist. I asked to be given the tracts separately for editing purposes, for me to insert into the film. My composer informed me that they would not do that as there would 1) Not be a reference point to synch them up and 2) that it would destroy the dynamic range, where in I could simply lower the volume of the entire tract if it interfered with any on screen dialog while playing, and that there would be "no benefit" to having two separated tracts for the piece. I'm simply asking as to ascertain whether my request was unreasonable and unworkable due to my dearth of music mixing knowledge, or if this is simply a matter of preference.

In the professional world, it is quite customary and expected that the music team will bring what are known as "stems" to the dubbing room for the final soundtrack mix. These stems are often separate tracks of things like "Strings", "Brass", "Vocals", "Music Effects", "Percussion", etc. The purpose is precisely so that the director, producer(s), dubbing audio engineer, etc., can bring down or up any specific parts of the music (using those stems) that they feel may need adjusting in order to keep things like dialogue and non-music effects (like clashing swords, and crashing cars) as clear as possible. So I think the simple answer to your simple question is "No". The request was neither unreasonable nor unworkable. But yes, it is indeed a matter of your preference as a director, as to whether or not you think you will want that level of control.

I assumed you were the director, but I should correct that. It is up to the preference of whoever is the director, and whoever are the producers, etc.

It's okay, you got it right the first time, and thank you very much for your insights.

You're very welcome. I'm glad you look for answers and help at a cool site like this, rather than just getting "pushed around". Lots of people here are very knowledgeable about the many other aspects of directing, as well (of which I know little). Best of luck with your project!

I mix alot of features and broadcast. I always ask for stems from the composer. I like to get the music when possible as a full on mix, then a set of stems that when set all to unity gain they make the same mix ( give or take). I ask for the basic rhythm tracks and background as a stem, the lead instrumentation and/or vocals separate and then anything else that might interfere/fight with dialogue. That way I can keep the energy of the music up by simply dropping, editing, reducing the offending instrumentation when I need to. I also do a LOT of music editing in a feature mix including a lot of EQ / COMP / LIMITING to meet QC and delivery requirements and to assure the dialogue is always audible over the music.

There ya go! :-) Good to hear about your professional experience, Georgia.

Thanks Georgia. This gives me a good idea of where to move the conversation with my composer for future projects.

Hiya, Shane. I'll provide whatever is requested if the stems are going to a sound stage, where they will be handled by a professional re-recordist. Otherwise, I'm unlikely to release "non-standard" stems -- "standard" being orchestral section and/or soloist stems that are delivered to the stage for a full surround mix -- since it's easy for a non-professional to bollox up a mix (sorta like how I can bollox up a photograph...and believe me, I can bollox it BAD). Typically, in indie film, if I'm asked to provide something that doesn't seem quite right, or seems like it will actually cause more problems than it will solve, I'll chat with the director or producer about why they want what they've requested, and then I'll work with the audio post team to get them what will achieve the creative goal. It's the opposite of being an obstructionist; rather, I want to be sure to meet the ultimate goal rather than fulfill a request that might be a bit off the mark. Lastly, just FYI, my experience has been that, in TV, this sort of thing is addressed during even an initial meeting and, in film, it's typically addressed, at least peripherally, by the time we're spotting. If you were already in post, with score delivered, I can imagine that this might well have seemed like a curve ball to the composer, although it sounds as if Request Denied might've been handled perhaps a wee more diplomatically. Hoping this info helps.

Deon brings up a very good point... When i'm hired to mix a feature, I explicitly discuss hoe the process will work with producers, director and other people involved. Asking for this stuff at the last minute can be a bit of an issue. Its really up to the producer who writes the checks and pays the bills. It's all about the contract the producer has with the composer and the working relationship the composer has with the re-recording engineer.

Georgia (nice to meet you), in film I'm almost always at the mercy of the director, and in tv almost never...except for a Showtime series I did years ago in which each episode was like a short film made by different directors but with the same production core. (It got a bit wild and wooly, oh yes, it did.) Anyway, I found your point quite salient, that ultimately is IS up to the person writing the checks, but honestly, I'll extend beyond my contract for a director request if it doesn't hurt another project I've accepted AND it would really seem to help flow. Whenever I'm in doubt, we reach out to the mixer, who ALWAYS knows what's actually happening. You guys have surgeons' hands and nerves of steel, I'm convinced. Much respect.

Georgia and Paul are both right. Asking for the stems allows you to do what you need in the mixing session. Been there, done that. But, I must say, I am usually both the director AND producer as I primarily work in film. I am getting ready to branch into TV which, I understand, is a different world for the directors. Good luck to me (the control freak! LOL!).

Just a quick update and thanks for the advice. I managed to make the audio files I received work for my project, despite not being split into stems, though I would have preferred it and it may have lead to a slightly better sound overall. Still, I suppose you can take a look if you like. (and be harsh, I'll need the criticism to improve) http://26th.abcsofdeathpart2.com/entry/m-is-for-mormon-1/ Thanks everyone for your input and interest, and good luck on all the wonderful projects you're working on.

I don't hear any sound. Popped over to youtube and played a random video; heard it just fine. Volume is up on the embedded player. Is there a problem with the uploaded file? It looks good so far. :-)

Oops. Nevermind ... I refreshed the page, and this time the sound came up. :-D

So here are my thoughts and criticisms. I think the humor is good. The Mormon character is great, well cast and well played. I think you could afford to make the other guys as quirky as he is -- perhaps a little on the side of taking themselves too seriously. You know, ultra close-ups of these guys with stone faces, and few words. That would make their downfall even funnier, IMO. The "interrogation" music has to go. It doesn't really sound like a score, and for me does not really help promote the quality and character of those scenes. I would go for either no music, or music that plays it like almost a serious, or slightly caricature version of a real thug/mobster movie (Pulp Fiction comes to mind). I think the guitar and vocals work really well where you have them. No problems. The only thing I couldn't hear well was the sobbing guy's dialogue. I think he just needed to enunciate a little more (despite the sobbing). In some places I think the editing and acting could move a little faster. For example, when the 2nd thug turns to answer the door the final time, his pause is too long. All the scenes starting from the stab sequence are good. Maybe a little less time on the blood hitting the tied-up guy's face. Overall. though, lots more is great about this little film than needs work, in my view. I really liked it.

Thanks Paul. I may have to see if I can give this video some polish without messing up it's location on youtube.

You really did a great job on it, Shane. Looking forward to seeing more from you in the future!