Screenwriting : Must a teen girl and 40ish male lead to rape? by Craig D Griffiths

I agree with you. No reason for a sexual threat (and that note is a bit disturbing).

Well, 'damsel in distress' implies that a male hero must rescue your teen protagonist. Hopefully that's not the case. She saves herself, yes? ;) In regards to that awful note, I agree with William -- there's no reason for sexual threat. Apparently the reader feels gender must inform what happens to your character; that just because she is a female character rape must be a threat to her. Or, because a male character is threatening a female character he must be a rapist. ...Very disturbing indeed.

oftentimes the main character comes to a breaking point but I would never call it "damsel in distress" if she saves herself.

Damsel in Distress is just the thread title not a story arc. The reason I did stray away from rape is that it is expected and it is a bit easy to bring characters down to that level. The guy has already made the leap and values nothing but survival. Sara hopes to find people to join and be safe. She is clinging to the old world. If she doesn't change she dies.

No disrespect intended, Craig, but you may have unintentionally broached a subject that garners strong political feelings, even if it's not quite your story arc or theme. A few thoughts on the subject and its effects: +Obviously, parts of the industry have no trouble using the term, the theme, and/or tension-building scenes in a film, like that, even though others may take offense to it. It's used quite a bit - from movie reviews to prodco script calls to finished films. I could see how it could ruffle some feathers, but it's still, in general, an industry-accepted term, theme and - in some films - an action that is natural and logical for that film or simply a gratuitous scene or series of scenes for sexually expoitative purposes. + If you are referring to the Nicholls Screenwriting Competition, I find it interesting that you received contradictory feedback from different readers. Again...if that was the competition you are referring to...it just goes to show how difficult it is to get people in the same body of judges/readers to agree on the merits or on their critiques of a screenplay. + Using "damsel in distress" even momentarily....or "dudesel in distress" even momentarily....or as a theme, or as a scene that involves obviously-rising tensions....as a writer, and to me, things have to play out naturally. In a lot of "in distress" films, or scenes that play out that way...sometimes the forced sexual element naturally fits, and sometimes it's gratuitous. Some producers dig that immensely - I saw a film a few weeks ago on Chiller that played that up to the hilt, because that's where the film was naturally headed. In that world of that film, it was quite natural. In others, it's not natural and is quite senseless. Some may call it "tasteless" in any usage or context, but that's not the issue here. Sometimes the action is suggestive...sometimes it's covert/hidden to the viewer....sometimes it's overt....sometimes it's the main reason the movie exists. The important thing to me, though, is this: with or without the additional sexual tensions/forced actions - it should play out NATURALLY. Without knowing the entire context of your dramatic situation...I wouldn't attempt to hazard a guess. From your brief description, though, it doesn't seem necessary. On the flipside, though...a "teenage girl" at the mercy of an "evil man" (your words)...anything can happen. Good luck.

Hi there. Surely the point is it's your story, not theirs and you didn't want to go that way. I think you should stay true to yourself. These readers, are they also screenwriters? Do they know you? They may not be completely unbiased in their critique. As in all forms of art you take in the criticism, you think about it, then you assess whether it fits in with your view of the story, and sometimes you make amendments. (As long as you don't compromise your vision). Personally I wouldn't want to watch that scene. I find the whole will-we-survive-after-the-apocalypse trend interesting from a survival point of view. You could have brought in cannibalism as in "The Road", maybe you have. Again it goes too far imho. The best movie I've seen in this genre is a New Zealand production. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Quiet_Earth_(film) , although the start to I am Legend blew me away. The quiet earth has no rape scene, no Zombies, no cannibalism - it just focuses on what If you were apparently the last man on earth. Anyway what ever you decide - best of luck!

Craig, do what you think is best for your story. This was only one reader's opinion -- a disturbing one at that. If other credible and knowledgeable reviewers give the same note, then you may feel the need to "check that box." Perhaps the threat of rape becomes a possibility but your protagonist escapes before it can occur. Whatever you decide, tread carefully. It sounds like your story already contains violence against women. Does it really need more? Is it really necessary? Would it truly add anything? Would it change the course and/or message of the story? Would it be gratuitous? Anyway, best of luck with your script. :)

I think that with the current politically correct environment, writers are starting to get too caught up in how this group or that group is displayed. Your character is not "Everyman" or "Everywoman" or "Every gender fluid non race specific sentient being." It is a character in your story. Something has to happen to SOMEONE, or it's not a story. If you're looking to make a political or social statement with everything you write, you've got a long row to hoe. (Not to be confused with "ho" because there's another group who might take offense.) Concentrate on telling a story about your characters, not societal perceptions and representations of groups, unless that's the focus. Just tell a great story. If someone says "You're portraying women this way" tell them no, you're portraying THIS woman this way, because its a story.

Ever talk about a movie with friends and each person has a different opinion? Not any different than people reading your script. The readers are not contradicting each other, they have different opinions. Some readers want more threat, some will feel you have enough. The one reader who felt you missed an opportunity seems to be the one who prompted you to think. Do you feel you may have missed an opportunity in your story? Could the reader mean he felt the stakes were not high enough? Perhaps he felt what is happening to your character needed (in his opinion) to be harsher in order for her to do what she is doing. Hard to say without reading your script. My thoughts on your "damsel in distress" statement is I think females do not need to be damsel in distress. some stories call for that. Many don't. Sounds like YOUR story doesn't call for the damsel in distress.

let's not get carried away, I don't think the note is bad or disturbing. One of the last women on Earth would be the subject of sexual harassment, this much is obvious. Does it need to be in the script?I highly doubt it "needs" to be. Could it be and could it provide character growth? yes, and it wouldn't be remotely sexist in that setting.

"So if readers " The way I read the earlier posts--It was one reader who had that opinion as everyone has one. On pitches, I had one exec tell me if I changed a few things than it would be something big while another one said it was like a romance novel that nobody would read. You just have to go over any feedback and determine which is relevant.

Why I thought it was too easy is because it felt like a trop. Have we all seen it before? Yep. Plus the story was looking at base survival. If you look at Maslow, water, food, shelter are all basics. Companionship and sex are up the scale. These people are in a fight to the death. If he was trying to enforce his power over her, punish her, force he could take what he wants when he wants, it would be a useful device. But this wasn't that. Once he got what he wanted ensuring his survival. Then he may even force her to submit, even more of a position of power. If I take a step back, perhaps the reader wanted more life threatening stakes. Perhaps rape was the biggest threat to come to his mind. Perhaps I could make the environmental threat more profound. I wanted to raise the stakes based on what is happen, change the balance of power in the battle for survival. If I rely on sexual violence it is harder for her to balance that. She will be force to defend rather than try to escalate. Of course just my opinion, it may be something in me that makes wrong in the story. Hard to say. Enjoyed the discussion.

I have to say that if you are living in a liberal society that views itself as enlightened, the sexual aspects of it seem harsh and disturbing. I say come down to the ghetto, it happens every day. Some teenage girl is getting taken advantage of by a middle aged man. It is more common than most people realize. It depends on the culture and environment. If you are in a post apocalyptic setting not a whole lot of what we consider "norms" matter. The only morality will be what the clan, in this case a clan of two, negotiate. (You never want to negotiate from a position of weakness.) If survival takes all the energy you have, you might not have any sexual advances. But the truth is, while not politically correct, in a real situation that you are not sure you will live to see tomorrow, if the man has power over a girl of a reasonable age (13 is a lot different than 19), there will be sexual tension. May not be acted upon, depending on the character's nature...but it would be there. The exception would be if the man saw himself as a father figure, but obviously this man does not. If he did see himself as a father figure the tension might be from the other direction. There was just a big movie that was based on rape, although it was eluded to and not actually shown in any way. Mad Max: Fury Road.

@John Garrett the implied rape in Fury Road was 100% about power, down to the chastity belts he made the woman wear. Really good example. The point you make about the culture defining the actions is also well made. It could be weaved in if it became a power issue. Which I can add in. She has taken something he wants back. He doesn't get it, she kills him eventually. But if he manages to get, rape could be there to "teach her a lesson" so to speak. To use a horror concept, I probably should put her in the room with the monster more. Thanks for the input, great points.

@Peter not to split hairs, but motivation and need are two different things. I am motivated to write, I need food and water. I may use the word Trop and Stereotype interchangeably, which is probably wrong and confusing. But big strong brutal man, teenage girl = rape is (insert word). @Ellis they start out amicable but he soon tries to exert control. She stands up for herself, mistake and everything goes to hell. They don't spend a great deal of time in close proximity. He hunts her down after taking over her camp, forcing her to fight. If she had a victory, swap the power dynamic for a time, then take that power from her. Then rape as punishment and power may fit.

Craig if you really want to avoid the sexual angle, make the strong brutal man gay. If he is a Bear in the gay community before survival, it might play. And if you want to play all the angles it gets you into LGBT festivals. We have one in Dayton, Ohio.

The possibility of rape for a young girl, on her own, in a savage environment, is just a reality. However, it does not follow that all men, even evil men, are rapists. An easy way to avoid including the rape arc without seeming to be avoiding a difficult topic is to give the antagonist his own set of morals. Of course these will be completely inconsistent, which will only give the character depth, since most moral systems are inconsistent. Just include a scene in which this "evil man" goes on a self-righteous rant about how rape is not essential to survival and therefore a waste of energy. Or something of that sort.

Ellis is correct in that rape is about power and control. If your big mean man is torturous towards the girl, that is most likely why you get the feedback about missing that angle. C's statement that he might have inconsistent morals rattled something loose in my brain. There was a serial killer movie I saw a long time ago, I cannot remember the name or the full aspects of the movie, but the serial killer would not have sex with his wife because that was "dirty" and would only have anal sex with his victims because he wasn't married to them, if I recall that correctly. Obviously what stuck with me about the character was the confusing moral code. So she is definitely on to something. However it was clearly stated in the movie what his belief system was.

Just a friendly reminder... Please, let's refrain from becoming too graphic with this discussion. Thanks everyone. Much appreciated. :)

Beth, I think we're all adults here. We should be able to discuss stories as they span many uncomfortable topics.

Hi Craig. Feed-back is always good, but maybe you could read more into what that one reader was saying. Maybe it doesn't have to be 'sexual threat' the reader thought she/he was missing...maybe it was just a romantic sub-plot? or even just a sexual tension between the characters? Sex sells, and producers are the people who find funding for your story. Also, as many have said above, it is also a part of life, even in basic survival scenarios. Sometimes, when you're so sure you're going to die, it's what saves you, or helps you escape the terror of the moment, or find an enemy where you thought you had a friend, or find a friend where you thought you had an enemy. I think you should follow your instincts, and stay away (not shy away) from the 'rape' scenario...if your character's dynamic was like that the story would have led you there anyway....but do consider some form of sexual tension between them. Maybe the bad guy is afraid of her for some reason? Maybe he's gay? Maybe he was raped in his past, so he'd never consider doing it to someone else? Re-writes can be so difficult, maybe injecting a little 'think outside the box' will make it more fun?

Cherie, yes, of course. However, it was beginning to veer outside parameters set by the folks who own and operate this site. Again, just a friendly reminder. Carry on! Thanks. :)

...Well, also, just to mention, we do have members who are not adults.

@Ellis you have made some good points and revenge was one thing I was trying to stray away from. After a person gets revenge it is assumed that there is a chance that they can go back to the pre-attack days. They may be changed, altered, irreparable, but revenge adds a end to the event, it makes the attack and revenge a scenario. I am trying to get across the idea of change in the face of a new world. She is forced carry out an attack of violence to survive in the new world. She must make a permanent change to who she is, no going back. I think motivating her actions based on revenge under mines that. But if the attack is just one weapon in his arsenal and not a defining moment, then permanent change may still be portrayed. I think I need to put her in bigger and larger threats. The genre is post apocalyptic so I am trying to stay away from all the normal things found in them and make something more character driven, rather than the character being a device to tell the tale of the world. @Sarah I see what you are saying. Just not between these two people. He is an angry controlling drifter, she has been part of a family that have protected her from so many evils of the world. They die suddenly dropping her into a world she is not equipped to survive in.

@Craig. I think it's your story to tell and learning to survive on your own (in a post apocalyptic world or any) would make for a good story if done right. Readers offer their opinion but it is up to you to decide if any of them have merit. I laughed off a few comments that I received from execs because I found what they brought up to be something that I wasn't willing to consider for my heroines.

Couldn't agree with you more, Stuart. :)

First if I offended anyone, please accept my apology. I was simply discussing a movie I saw probably 20 years ago that was obviously haunting and stuck with me. Which I cannot find Ellis, but I am still looking for it. True Grit I think that is an excellent example of what C.m. Andino was talking about with a moral code that defines the character. Might be twisted, but it is there. I enjoyed that film btw.

@Stuart, I watched both True Grit versions and can't see why they would ever feel the need to use sexual violence.

Thanks for the clarification. There are so many that would go that route though in their writing just because it's a hot button issue.

It sounds somewhat like ski fi Lolita with violence which in today's world is not very acceptable. Having not read the story in context the only relationship that readers accept romantically is a teacher-student marginal age difference. On the good side is that good writing can be directed at a specific age group which today is young adults who don't dwell on numbers'

@Craig. I think you have a great survival story and so much conflict already. The girl is looking for a group to belong with while the guy just wants to survive. Without reading your script, it sounds to me like he is trying to eliminate her solely for her supplies therefor improving his chances of survival.

@Tom some of her complexity comes from the fact that she looked up to her Dad (idolised him). He is forced to kill in front of her, she is horrified. Dad explains that you need to do what is needed to survive. The Dad dies. She is alone why Don turns up. She is still a little hopeful in the world. Finally she is forced to accept that Dad is right and kill in self defence. This part of the aim of the story. I don't want to introduce something that may imply revenge rather than change. If she kills just out of revenge than she hasn't changed and the world will still get her. We may be able to cheer the revenge, but we will not mourn the loss of her humanity. @Billy yes in a way. A bit like Arnie in the terminator. There are infected towns etc. there is a Satellite GPS that she has stolen from him during an argument. He needs it to get back to his people and collect things he has cached. He is willing to kill to get it. She wants it to find people, but she is in no position to travel.

sounds like a movie I would love to watch.

Well the pace of this thread had dropped off so I think all interested parties have had their say, and thank you all for that. A summary of what I am taking anyway from this. First the obvious stuff. It is my story and I should write it my way That the most disturbing acts and subjects have a place in a story if they are meant to be there. That some of us think people are basic and predictable while others think more highly of us as a species (we are both right). And that the note I got, even though it was probably inappropriate, demonstrated an unwillingness to really harm my character. She needs to be under more threat more often to that reader to feel the action. Thanks again.

If it doesn't fit in the story, then leave it out. If it needs to be there, add it. It would add another level of threat and completely reasonable in that type of situation. Humans have a natural sexual drive and desire and in a post apocalyptic world, chances are this man's natural desire has not been fulfilled and may be sparked by this young girl. You could have it where he attempts to rape her but she kills him to protect herself. She did what she had to do to survive. With that being said, don't just add it in to plug in another threat that she must face. The situation must serve the overall story.

@Kevin I can see how the threat can work in the story. I can see how he thinks he has enough power of her to force her to submit to his will. This could cause her to make the decision to live on her own terms or become someone's possession. Her change can be on two fronts, a willingness to defend herself as well as setting her own future.

@Craig, sounds like she has it plenty rough with being beaten and poisoned just so that the damage is severe enough to make the audience question whether she'll make it through or not.

I think her default reaction is to run. This happens a few times. Might make sense in real life, but it can feel repetitive. Don does bad thing - Sara escapes - Don chases - threats. Even though the situation changes it does feel a bit sequence based. May need to weave the danger and break the pattern.

In answer to your question - No. No. And double No.

oops, I clicked the heart thing by mistake.

@David it alright you can like your own work lol.

@Craig, I thought her default was to find "family" to belong to since hers is gone. she could have seen him as a fatherly figure until she saw his true motives---leaving her to fend for herself after stealing what little she had

@Billy initially it was family and community. I was referring to her default reaction to immediate threat. As humans we do tend to have programmed responses, you either blast the horn in traffic or you don't. People tend to stick to a set of behaviours. Even if this is true in life, it can become quickly boring in a story as it becomes predictable, which I think is s trap I have fallen into in this version of the story.

@Craig as far as the psychology of fight or flight you might want to read a book On Killing. It describes that fight or flight actually only applies to inter-species conflict. For same species conflict, including humans, there is a third response called posturing. Instead of going directly to fight, one may posture. IF neither submits, then a fight will ensue. They show many examples.

In conflict: A face going red means anger. A face going pale means danger.

@John there is forty pages of grinding threat that forces her to change. I will hunt down that book regarding threat response. @David as blood pours into limbs so you run away your face will go pale (way too much discovery channel). I just thought of 1984 where John Hurd pegs them to torture his lover and leave him alone. Someone pushed to breaking.

I will save you the hunt. http://www.amazon.com/On-Killing-Psychological-Learning-Society/dp/03160... Rock on.

@Craig. yes flee as a first response but I suspect she like most will try something else when that fails to achieve the desired effect. which is sounds like you have it written that way already.

@Billy in the story the resources she needs to get to any communities and survive the winter, such as clothes and shoes are in her caravan which has been taken over by Don. She has stolen his GPS which is the only leverage she has. He is willing to let die and recover his stuff then. What I am considering is the potential for the action to become repetitive in nature. She has to get into the caravan to allow her to escape, Don is trying to catch her and get his stuff. I'll need to mindful of building tension and action through differing techniques.

@Craig--this could be the lack of "hurting her enough" that the reader was talking about. From your last comment, it sounds like she is merely a nuisance to Don and he could care less about obtaining his GPS. I imagine he would threaten her more if it was immediately vital that he obtain it instead of waiting for her to die. I can see her raiding the caravan for supplies and trying to live at the edge of it as they travel. That places suspense right there as you're wondering will she make it off with the supplies before she's caught. As I said before though, it is your story so do what you see fit with it. I had readers before that wanted me to go the easy way for conflict instead of the one I planned.

@Billy it is life and death. And I could shoot it to be compelling. But I am not filming it. So I have to make it read with variation. Plus by changing the dynamic of the physical contacts I can incrementally increase the tension. People tends to use the same patterns of speech or actions. This may be realistic, but may make the action/reaction predictable. I am looking forward to jumping into an action pass and rethink.

could always write suspense by mentioning close by sounds ie her searching through a tent then rustling at the door moments before she flees out the side and then he comes in to find his stuff gone.

Post apocalypse, the value of a GPS would be questionable, depending on the cause of the downfall. There are protocols for disabling GPS or scrambling it so that only military can use it. (Why preppers keep current maps.) Which makes me wonder if he has some place he is trying to get to? You might consider her gaining control of something personal that he has a serious emotional attachment to something he values as part of who he is/was.

Tension could be done without rape. Resources are low: She already stole the GPS. Right before he eats what little he has, she sneaks in and steals it. (perfect idea comes to him--poison some of his own food and leave it out so she'll steal the tainted food) He tracks down the weakened girl only to find out she doesn't have the GPS on her. Somehow he must make sure she recovers so that he can force her to reveal the location of the GPS. How's that for tension?

@John the GPS most of us know and use would be useless in no time. Don't go camping using your phone as a GPS. I have a friend in Canada that is very "deep forest" type guy. He says it there are some GPS that work independently and interface with satellite tech. The story is only 18months post incident. @Billy great beat thank you.

your welcome. As far as GPS working or not, I'm sure there are plenty that work off of satellites. Also except for Craig, we don't know what the incident was (loss of electric power like the tv show revolution or a zombie virus: in the electric loss, most stuff won't work but in the zombie virus, everything should work like it did before until maintenance is needed.

If it's not essential to the telling of the story - then it can be construed as gratuitous. But, as Peter stated, if you hint at it in the setup, then say, in the following act(s) you have to have your protagonist confront it, no matter how uncomfortable the scene may well be. It doesn't need to be an all-out visual expose. O.S. sounds can illicit the same response. I was told once through feedback from a potential buyer.. "The problem he has with new writers is they're too nice and easy to their protagonists/ hero... You need to put them through hell and throw every obstacle - including the kitchen sink at them to keep them from achieving their goal."