Composing

Our job has always been kind of remote. Unlike actors, cameramen, staff, etc... Score Composers intervene mostly at later stages of production.

Just like a production chain, those who make the product are not likely to meet those who enhance/market it. I suppose this is why some productions have someone who specialises in PR, as to relate every stages and aspect in the making of the movie.

Not sure if I'm making much sense here, but that's how I see it. The main product here is a movie and the music part of the product, not the main one. Though it plays an essential role.

Let's turn the situation upside down. When an artist/band produces a music video, actors/extras can also be this sort of a remote part of the main product. The latter being, the song.

Guillaume Longhi - It might also be interesting for us to try to get involved earlier in the project. A composer could be very helpful to define the look/feel and sonic identity of a project very early on. Imagine if a 'Lookbook' had a rough score during the Pitch stage of the project.

Sometimes movies are made to the sound track which really brings a lot of life to the experience...music is important:-)!

Here are my two cents. First cent: if somebody says your production could be improved, work on improving it. A trick I use is to convince myself somebody else composed/produced my track and listen with those ears. The joy of creation is not something your audience will experience, so you need to compartmentalize that in yourself. Second cent: if, after you've composed and produced to the best of your ability, you're still not hired for a gig...let it go. Not every composer, even an A-list composer, is every director's cup of tea. You want to encourage good matches, and being declined is a healthy step toward directing your time and resources toward directors who are a good fit.

Hi Julian Montgomery! That’s great, thank you so much! I’m gonna check that out! Good luck! :)

Hey Rachel Walker! :)

Hi Mara, what about some Indian Music in it ?

Hello Mara, did you find a composer to help you? If not, or your looking for a composer for another project, kindly visit my Youtube channel, you might like my music :) screenshot added.

Contact Allan Phillips - does some great stuff.

I get what you're saying, Joel but I am familiarized with composition, I already have some pieces of my own! That's why I feel confident that I can write my own score for my films.

Writing music, even orchestra music, and scoring cues that fit and support the action of the film could be different. If you feel confident then go for it. When the film is completed, get feedback on everything from someone outside the film biz.

Joel made some valid points. One suggestion - Determine the scenes in your film that you feel need music. Choose existing music from your music collection (or anywhere else) and place them under your edited film, both ambient (background) and songs (if necessary) . If you hear Zimmer's Inception score or a Chainsmoker's song in a scene, place it in. You will have created your own Temp Score. After creating your ideal, "unlimited" budget Temp Score that you feel best supports & enhances your film, you will then be able to determine if you currently have the skill set to compose a score that benefits your film. The Other Suggestion - Take a go at scoring it yourself. See if you like doing it and if it works for your film. If nothing else, you have tried something that will expand your knowledge & ability to talk with a film composer should you choose to hire one in the future. Good luck!

Thank you so much, Allen!

Hi , if you have a budget i can score something for you , feel free to reach out and talk more , Best

It's neither. A Parody is covered by its own legal interpretation.

Thank you. That’s what I thought but I had a parody called a cover and I corrected the person that called it a cover but thought I’d better make sure.

Lol "Hey composer people let me throw you off! 3...2..."

Wow this has been up for 2 weeks... Typical now that I'm looking. "Composer: a passive-aggressive sadist."

There is a good and bad associated with that. Composing/scoring is much the same as any other profession - if you are a service/product provider and your customer likes the service/product, they will continue to do business with you. I work with a particular filmmaker who started using me back in 2014 and we have now done over 10 IMDB films together since then including two already this year.

That is the good news. The problem/issue occurs when the person (filmmaker / director, etc.) is not in a position to make the decision to use you. This has not yet happened to me but it I believe it will inevitably will. I have a scoring peer in Houston who composed music for a local filmmaker for a few of her films including ones which showed on Lifetime. Eventually the filmmaker/director began working with a producer and the films were no longer produced in Houston but in Canada (where many Lifetime and Hallmark films are produced) - the producer had people not from Houston and all the post production work left the city including the film scoring.

So what does this mean - it is unfortunately totally normal. Has happened for decades in Music industry for example - a relatively unknown singer signs with a record label - say Sun Records in Memphis and has a great relationship. But eventually the singer becomes famous/popular and moves to a different label - RCA. Sound familiar - Elvis Presley! :)

So we create a relationship with others in the film biz - not just the filmmakers and directors who hire us - but all the various people and jobs. Film is often about collaboration and interaction. And then we enjoy the ride because it won't last indefinitely! :)

I mean, my guess is you don't change a team that wins. Just like in team sports. If I were a film director and I have my go-to music composer, the latter will be more of a priority than others. For the rest, I believe Joel pretty much summed up the whole thing.

I like your thoughts on creating working relationships with many of the creators within the film industry.

This is my input 'from the outside looking in' as I neither work for a production company or live in LA.

1. As I spent 23 years at Exxon, my initial take is you learn and use the tools used at the company. Your background in your tools is used primary for considering you for the job. The assumption is, for example if you are expert in one or more DAWs/sequencers and many VSTs, then if they use others you can quickly come up to speed.

2. The tools and data formats you use are primarily important if you are part of a larger 'workflow' which most of us are. You get your 'stuff' from someone and you provide your product to someone else. So, you need to work with the formats you get and you need to insure the data/formats you provide are what your co-workers need to work with/expect.

As I, for example, am independent and not as part of a production company, those who dependent on me really don't care about that 'black box' in the middle as long as I score the scenes as directed and provide the audio editor with the files they need. They should not care, for example I that I use Sibelius with various VSTs and instruments - I am one of those 'types' that don't use a DAW/sequencer at all since I want to score once and potentially use the score for both electronic distribution and live performance (i.e., charts) :)

I am still a part of a larger 'workflow' so before I start after the cues are defined (or I am given the ability to create them on the fly) - I come to an 'agreement' with the person(s) who are providing me with the film -- locked or not, what format, file type, etc. And then I get agreement/buy-in on the type of WAV (or WAVs) and as these are short films (normally), whether I would pre-mix the levels (with pre-defined 'keyframes') so all the audio editor/mixer needs to do is put a single WAV file (untouched) into an audio track in the film OR whether they will be responsible for doing the mix and setting of the keyframes in the score.

Hi Sarah. I hear Logic is big in LA, and Cubase in London, though London seems to be becoming more Logic too now. Pro Tools is more generally used for mixing, mastering and the final mix than composing, though some composers use it for everything. What kind of jobs in LA are you looking for? As Joel mentions, if it's a scoring job then they shouldn't care too much what DAW you use. If it's some kind of production house, then either ask what they use, or look on their websites to see if it's mentioned or if you can sneakily see any pictures of monitors with a DAW open on them!

Cubase could be big in the U.K. because it is a product of Steinberg which is a U.K. company. Steinberg also now sells one of the top three notation tools, Dorico which competes against Sibelius (part of Avid which also sells Protools) and Finale.

I am a bit of renegade - I will score any short for free as long as the music is used once I start delivering (I have an 'agreement' signed by both of us). I have done something like 27 shorts that way so far (6 this year). But again, if I score a film and then you decide to go in a different direction, you pay for the music you didn't use. I charge for features.

I disagree with the ones working for free. First of all they ruin the value of the scores, that is a lot lower than in the past. This value should go higher because the scores are more complex and producers are more demanding, but it's going the opposite for the ones working for free. Second, they indirectly give the impression that "composing music" is an hobby and not a profession, and this ruin the value of our careers, our studies and our talent. There's a lot more I would like to say but it's enough to discuss, I think. For now.

You're problem is an easy fix :)

I think it probably, or hopefully, gets to the point for most composers where it's just no longer possible to work for free. When you're starting out, it's probably important to say yes to almost anything for a bit, but once you start working and once you leave your day job to do it full time, there quickly becomes not enough hours in the day to be able to work for free. When I'm not working on a film, I have to continuously compose and produce music that I can then license out to TV or such to keep up my passive income, and when not doing that, I try to carve out some time for purely musically creative endeavors. It's a tough balance. Sometimes you get things that come your way that you just like and would like to contribute to, even without pay, but you just can't. One also has to be very careful of getting a reputation of being willing to work for free or on the cheap. One can quickly lose the respect of the community that way and then when the filmmakers do have a budget, they then move on to composers who fully charge.

It really has a lot to do with the 'community and the life situation that the crew member is in. As one looks outside the major communities such as LA and NY or even the smaller communities such as Atlanta and Austin (not to mention the communities outside the U.S.), the 'terrain' looks much different.

For example here in Houston (Texas), very few paid features come to town and when they do, very often the film uses local talent for production, but the post production rarely stays unless the producers and stakeholders are local. In the film composing world, Houston has no film specific sound stage that I am aware of - very few orchestras and ensembles --- most of the audio work is done in recording studios used for non-film projects as well.

As far as what is happening in the Houston composing world which may mimick other small(er) composing markets in the U.S. - those who work full time as composers do not earn their predominant money (imho) for film scoring. Two of the most prolific composers here in town (with credits in larger budget features), work in production (for location sound), do corporate and commercial work, teach at local universities, etc. Sure they earn in film music and I am obviously not familiar with every composer in a city as large as ours (4th largest in the U.S.), but based my years of attending local festivals, professional groups, and local networking events, the count of full time composers (earning all or most their money in films) in Houston is probably less than 10.

So most of the actors/actresses/crew here likely have day jobs. Some of those jobs could be connected to film work (actors/actresses work for talent and modelling agencies - some even are prince and princesses at kids parties ! :) - others like me are part of the wedding videography business. Point is, they do not rely on income from the film business as their primary source - I don't.

So then we can address the 'concept' that people who do film here do so only as a stepping stool to something bigger perhaps moving to a larger market. Perhaps - I am sure there are some. But I have also worked with crew and acting people here for over 10 years that are going nowhere - they are happy to live and work here in Houston. I am certainly not planning on going to LA or NY (and I am a native NY'er - born in Brooklyn :) ). Most of my family lives and works here and Texas is a great and inexpensive place to live (if you don't mind the 8 months of heat and humidity and the occasional hurricane).

With that in mind, we can now turn to the question of pay. Would it be nice to get a few hundred or a few thousand dollars for the most common film made here - a short? Yes, that would be nice but clearly with the budgets of a short, a few hundred would be nice but that could be a substantial part of the filmmaker's budget and a large majority (possibly larger) of the shorts made here (and even the out of town ones I have worked on) do not pay any of the crew (except perhaps the screenwriter). In addition, many of the shorts are made for competitive festivals such as the 48 hour film project (we just had 38 teams compete in that last month) or the 168 film festival in Burbank coming up in three weeks (I have two scored films showing) and these festival prohibit payment.

So many of the acting and crew people including myself are involved in our local communities because we have passion about our products and the filmmaking industry and we enjoy what we do and we would rather work at little to no cost than not work at all.

I can not provide myself accurate data, but my experience here has shown that most local filmmakers have never worked with professional composers and either don't use music at all, purchase packages of music online that they have to figure out how to break into parts and place into the film appropriately, or they work with bands or individual musicians most of whom are interested in fame and fortune in the country, rock or jazz genres.

So we can discuss the general issue of whether we believe that people who create music deserve to be paid for their intellectual creations - great idea in concept, but in reality in places like Houston - composers would not earn much money from their creations and could be more interested in participating in a vibrant and close knit community when they are not working their day jobs.

I have now scored 30+ shorts and have yet to get paid for any of them (other than informally through gift certificates and other small items and things of value). And I am OK with that. I do charge for features and any film over 30 minutes.

I believe I heard some years back from one of my profs that Irving Berlin could not read or write sheet music - he had to hire someone to do it for him. Was he a composer?

Composer is just a term and in my opinion from the creative vantage, anyone who write music - no matter what it is, is legitimate. Now not every piece of music belongs in a film and not all cues or styles of music work for any particular filmmaker. It is not my job, interest or intention to critque anyone's score. You see, I would be comparing my experience and sound to their's and that may not be the type of music they are interested in creating. In my 'day job' for example, in wedding videography, I have been told by 'peers' that my quality is poor, my equipment worse, and I should get on the ball and shoot like them. Thing is, my style is 'documentary' and not 'cinematic' and my market doesn't want all the things that I have been criticized as not having or not sufficient quality. Another way of looking at it, is anybody can be a chef - one can be a successful chef at McDonalds. But chefs at multi-star high end restaurants would say they are not chefs - their just cooks. So what the heck - why do we even have to delve on what we call ourselves? I get every position / hat on a film has a name and so the person creating the music is called a 'composer'. So then if we merely suggest that the term is such, then it merely means one who has written music for a film. period.

The music normally speaks for itself and filmmaker have ideas of the type of music they want in a film. If your previous stuff matches what they want, you're a candidate for the job. If not, I hope there is some discussion on whether you can AND have the interest and talent to create the music they want. I worked on a film last year - scored it three times and finally the filmmaker walked away saying she need something that sounded more like 'millennial' music written for the female under 30 age group. Wish we had worked that one out before I started :)

If you a 'beat person' and know your market, then there is ample opportunity for films which need your style. And beat music creator need not be concerned with music theory, chord progressions, modes, etc. They may never score a $10+ million film but that is not their market. So in my opinion, those who are successful film music creators don't only know how to mingle and sell themselves with filmmakers from a business perspective, but know where their 'sound' gets the most miles. To name a few - there are styles for TV and web series, styles for video games, styles for children's TV, superhero styles, epic music styles, etc. My sound tends to be acoustic and orchestral (or jazz ensemble/big band). You wouldn't hire me to score a film needing gospel style music or music using rock music. I would not be the right person to score a live action musical or a film that is musical based (like Mary Poppins Returns) though I can certainly work with a lyricist I know to write a song that an actor/actress would sing in the film - though I would need significant lead time to arrange it for an ensemble - especially if there is on screen dancing.

So as creators of musical content, it is our job to market ourselves AND our product. The marketing of ourselves is something most of us at a minimum know how it is done - we mingle at mixers, mingle at film festivals, get ourselves on film teams / competitions like the 48 hour film project (where I got my first IMDB credit), mingle, mingle....

But what about our 'product'. Music for film has customers and products. We are really no different from any other profession. We have to interview for our jobs (unless we are lucky enough to get repeat business) and interest our customers in our product.

Film makers not only care about interacting with us but want to know what we bring to the table. If we have worked on films (and most of us start in the 'shorts' world), we need to make some or all of our music accessible to the 'stakeholders'/film makers. So many of us have parked our music at places like Soundcloud, Reverbnation, or perhaps our own websites. We then need to decide how to do it. Many composers create a single MP3 with excerpts. Or perhaps small clips (often less than 1 minute each) of music from a film they scored. Those with short versions of their music (single or multiple files) are often concerned about their music getting 'used' without permission or 'stolen'. I don't worry about that - I put out scores/soundtracks in totality for every film I score though I will eliminate cues that are 'boring' without watching the film. I also get permission of the filmmaker and have unlisted films I have scored (or links to them) on Youtube (though others prefer Vimeo). Of course, this makes more sense for shorts than features.

The final part of the 'business' of composing is LOCATION. How many times have we experienced ourselves or know someone who scores a feature for a local upcoming film maker and then when it comes time for another film collaboration, the 'producer' (or another stakeholder), contracts with a CA or LA based composer instead of us? For better or worse (imho), post production jobs more often than not end up in California. So for composer like me in Texas who has chosen not to re-locate or spend the money commuting, it is done with an 'understanding' that for some of the film scoring markets - not being in LA/CA is career limiting. But that is OK for me - for example - I am perfectly happy scoring shorts from Texas. I have scored 27 shorts in the last 6 years and about to score 3 alone next month for the 168 film festival - and one of them is a 'repeat filmmaker' from last year or lives and works in LA.

Well said Joel - I still feel a gravitational pull to "add more" and then guess what? I think even a bit more would be even better to the point where I've created this cycle that goes something like this -

1. Piano scetches, preliminary orchestration

2. Primary orchestration

3. "This sounds good in there too" orchestration

4. Here's more "stuff" that seems to work - and then finally

5. The Realization - it's too crowded, too big and simply too much! Then I begin the "thinning out process until I find myself back where I was 3 steps ago!

Unfortunately I still go through this process I think because we "hear" and "create" on the fly as cues come together -

Less is not always "more" but less is usually "better".

Yes.....the pause....

Interesting scenario Joel. Any update on how it's gone? Personally I only make sketches before seeing a locked picture, like mood ideas, which can slot in to the film or be catalysts for other thoughts. In general though, I find that this method only works well when working with a director you already know; blind sketching for a new director can be fraught with difficulty (having said that, I am about to do some pre-filming music for a director I haven't worked with before. Sometimes it's good to break your own rules!)

I wasn't keeping track until you asked and so I just did the count - 9 films so far for this director and now I am going to do two more this month. He obviously knows me and my sound pretty well.

If it wasn't for the fact that I have to shoot a wedding this Sat and the following Sat (in my day job I am a wedding videographer), I would have waited but the score had to be completed by tomorrow. And while I have seen some of the film, it is still as I post, not yet locked. What I did know is: (a) it is wall to wall music and the film had to be between 6m55s and 6m59s) and (b) it appears to be a documentary with continuous dialog - i.e., no silent segments.

So I just went ahead and arranged and orchestrated from the sketch without making any significant changes. The director heard it and seems to like it as is. So other than defining the mixing levels, we are done with this.

The second film for him shoots this weekend and I have until Memorial Day to score it. I am also on a third competitive 'speed team' for the last week of May (film has to be shot and finished in 7 days).

All three films are for the www.168film.com (168 film festival is a Christian themed festival which happens at the Regal Theater in downtown LA at the end of Aug each year).

This is a discussion lounge and not a promotion lounge so if you want to hear what I did for "Individual Living" (a documentary about young Austic adults living on their own), PM me. The score won't get publicaly released until June.

I'm not a music guy, but I think my advice applies to every aspect of this business. Don't lock yourself into any kind of delivery deadlines without clear parameters. Having to deliver a score without picture lock sounds like a nightmare, for sure! If it was me, I'd say "6 days after you deliver a locked picture is when I'll deliver a score." That's the way I do things - clear, definite milestones that build on each other. Makes for a much less stressful relationship.

John - problem is that the filmmaker does not set the deadline - the festival does and all three of the films I have or will score are under the same festival deadline. The first two need to be done by around memorial day and the third film has to be turned in by June 7 and so my score must be completed before then.

If I had waited to score the first until film lock, it would have impacted my ability to score the other two or at least significantly reduce the amount of time I have to getting the first two films scored before the final one comes to me.

I would agree with you if this is was a 'conventional' paid project. I could define specific requirements and hold off the scoring. But I voluntarily took on the scoring for all three films in may/early june. Luckily for me, the first was a documentary of all dialog (no silent parts) and filmmaker merely asked for wall to wall music. Could I have done a better job matching the music to the dialog? Possibly. But I finished it in 4 days and the director seems happy, so I can now move on to scoring the 2nd over the next two weeks (it's shooting this weekend). As the second is a dramatic film, I'm going to have to wait for lock (except for the end titles of course).

I agree with Joel's points (and well done for getting the documentary done Joel), but also John, there's a uniqueness about a composer's role in a film. Sometimes the director will want cues to play on set so the actors can feel the music's mood, meaning that you have to know where you're taking the score before the camera has even been turned on. Or perhaps they'll want a piece of music to edit to, so that they can hit the natural beats of a scene. We're often called on to work at every stage of production. You're right, it can make relationships stressful, but it can also make them very fruitful.

Hi Joel, out of curiosity, were you still paid for the work you completed? I’m assuming yes...or was it more of a headache to pursue getting paid than to just walk away?

An interesting question :)

I had a long conversation with a composer friend of mine (arguably the top film composer in Houston) who I consider my mentor. As far as the most recent example (#1) - this is quite common in the industry and something a composer should come to expect especially if they are under a 'work for hire' contract where the production company owns the music. Quite simply, in those situations, the film director can do anything they want to do with the music - use it, not use it, break it into parts, move things around anywhere they like. My mentor reinforced that once we agree to a work for hire paid contract, we compose for our customers and they can do anything they want with it once delivered.

Hopefully, if there is a well defined and hopefully long term relationship, there is a trust between the film stakeholders and the composer that the music is appropriate to where it was sync'd and that it will remain where it was intended by the composer. But again, no guarantees.

If there is no work for hire contract, or the composer retains the rights to the music, then the contract or whatever agreement was made will dictate what control and discretion each party has. There is no single answer, it is whatever is agreed upon.

I like to strive for and work with filmmakers in a long term relationship. I have one in particular whom I have worked on for perhaps 10 projects/films. We don't need anything formal (until he uses me for a feature :) ). He gives me the film, I score it with little to no feedback, and he takes the music as a single file and lays it on a track starting at 0 with no alterations except perhaps some sound level modifications ("keyframe" changes in volume) in spots.

For those I have little to no experience with (especially for those projects/short films I score for free), we have either a formal signed agreement/contract or at least an informal email one agreed to. My agreements always start with everything in it - including the requirement that I have to agree to anything which will break and or otherwise move the music from the location in the film where it was originally scored for. I generally do not object having scored music deleted if the scene is deleted. If a significant amount of scored music is deleted with the scenes left, it eventually becomes the same as not using the music at all and we then agree for my free projects, that I get paid for the unused music.

Again, my contracts and agreements are starting points. Sometimes we need to 'negotiate'. Varies by filmmaker and project.

Thanks for the response! I figured it would probably come down to whatever is in the contract regarding pay. I guess the key is always having thick skin, a good contract, and a good relationship with the director and/or producer.