Composing

Rock bands/musicians can be used to compose music for films. Just depends on the type of score that you are looking for. Most film composers come from a variety of backgrounds and have some additional musical training (composition, etc).

Thx!

If you go to different licensed music sites - many, many rock bands have their tracks in these sites that will possibly get picked up and used in a film. These sites have different qualities of music and some definitely carry more rock music. A few sites I have looked at in the past are:

Machinimasound

Matchless Music

Musicbed

Taxi

Song Freedom

TriplescoopMachinimasound

Music Vine

Rumblefish

Marmoset

BeatPick

Matchless Music

Musicbed

Taxi

Song Freedom

Triplescoop

Artlist

Robert, here is one more which I know of which has placed music in Oscar nominated and winning films. It is called "Musicsupervisor.com". When a completed commercial piece of music is placed in a film (that is a piece of music normally not specifically intended for the film), the person handling that placement and licensing requirements is referred to as a "Music Supervisor". Sometimes films consist wholly of multiple tracks from the same artist. Two great examples are "Mama Mia!" (using ABBA music) and "The Graduate" (using Simon and Garfunkel music). In other films, perhaps 20 or 30 tracks are used from many different artists.

Some directors/filmmakers, don't work with a composer at all but use just commercially licensed music. A great example is "Woody Allen". His recent film, "Wonder Wheel" used period music from the 1940/50s most notably by an early well known R&B / Pop singing trio called "The Mills Brothers".

Another great opportunity for rock groups is to create music that 'sounds like' another track that the director/filmmaker has deemed too expensive to license.

There are also many films targeted at under 30 or females (which we call 'chick flicks') which often are heavily based in rock music tracks.

One of things to be keenly aware of is that musicians (especially those who are members of the AFM - American Federation Of Musicians union) tend to 'freelance' outside of their established live 'gigs' at both recording studios and film sound stages so it may be possible that the musicians of a rock band and those performing live on a film soundtrack could be one and the same even if not the rock band itself.

Thx

Nice stuff Jonathan. And now I want to get a bit 'techie'. This may be splitting hairs and not be exactly what other people call 'countermelody'. But here is my take - for me, melody moves so when the melody note gets held and something/some other instrument is moving, they have temporarily picked up the melody. And so melody can in my opinion be passed back and forth between instruments/staffs and therefore, none of the instruments/staff in that scenario are 'counter-melody'. And if two instruments/staffs are playing different notes in the same rhythm or one is playing melody and the other is playing a different though longer held note - I would call that harmony.

When I think of counter-melody (as perhaps the way I first learnt it) is when there are two or more instruments/staffs playing different notes and rhythms against each other (and one carries the melody) in perhaps the way we first heard it by Bach.

In the first half of my final/second example above from "True Bliss" (up to 38 seconds), the melody passes back and forth between trumpet and piano and if the piano/violins don't own the melody, they are playing harmony. No counter-melody in the first half. In the second half, there are places where violin 1's on the left are playing different notes at the same time as the main melody (mostly played by the flute/oboe/clarinet). The first time through it can be barely heard up to 1m13s and it is more discernible the second time. I would suggest that the part played by the French Horns at 1m30s is counter-melody since those 3 eight notes followed by 3 quarter notes provide a contrasting melody to the main melody of 3 quarter notes and a dotted half played by violins 1. This is done twice to 1m40s. And then the French Horns play a different counter melody from 1m40s to the end against the Violin 1's and the other notes which provide harmony against the main melody.

Again it's probably splitting hairs trying to differentiate between melodic 'handoffs' and two melodies going at the same time.

But I bring it up here just so that others can think about it in the context of a film music piece and have them understand what our music does and how that could help them create their own orchestrations.

In my opinion, even in a 'master class' - things are often very general and we don't get an opportunity to discuss and think about the actual notes and what the options are. So I have from time to time used this forum to get down and dirty to discuss things I have heard from the composing classes I am taking where I get very specific feedback about things like counter-melody (which was the original motivation for this somewhat long thread/responses).

By the way, any music we have linked to hear is for the specific purpose of providing examples concerning our discussions and not intended as 'self-promotion'.

p.s. - I would love to see others take some of their original music scored for films and dissect it here in whatever way they feel would be educational for the rest of us. And if the music exists in chart form (and not 'piano roll' form) and with the understand that it is copyrighted material, provide charts we can watch and follow while we listen. I am willing to provide PDFs for any of my pieces discussed here.

Yep, that's why I posted RUSTIN. It's not a traditional sense of counter-melody but, strictly speaking, any good counterpoint contains counter-melodies. In RUSTIN, you could take the VLN II/VLA line as the melody and it works without the VLN I melody. And the counter-melody is harmonized. But, yeah, a more traditional counter-melody can be heard at the 8:35 mark of CHRISTMAS PARADE AT FERRARI WORLD (it's not too early to reference this is it, being the day before Thanksgiving?): https://soundcloud.com/jonathanprice/christmas-parade-at-ferarri-world

Joel, I was trying to relate to ... no need to have more than one instrument/staff playing counter-melody at a time, ... to how Dorico handles notes. Know you're going for the Counter-Melody and musicality; only saying how to score when blank parts/measures are above the Counter Melody playing. (You know how to do this after 20 years).

Could you message me a sample of your composition?

Johnny, who are you asking for the sample and are you looking to listen or get the score?

Have not heard sounds, or program Joel.

Though, Dorico could be another option.

Steinberg Dorico can use your current sounds.

1.2 is our now and does percussion writing. Now. May be worth the Trial to check it out.

Not sure how Dorico would handle XML transfers w Your treble clefs, though could change pretty easy in Sibelius before trying in new program.

Your sounds should add easily.

The Crossgrade is still going on.

Have a great weekend.

Kerry Kennard

I use Sibelius to write everything. I write everything in notation and then export the MIDI data to Logic for playback with my sample sets. I love it. I used it when I started writing a long time ago, when I went to university I had to switch to Finale, but as soon as I was done I went right back to Sibelius. A lot of things are easier to do on it, like quarter tones and stuff.

The sibelius sounds that come with it are ok for mockups, and writing but they are nowhere the quality of a good sample set like Cinesamples or Spitfire.

I use Finale myself, and don't own NotePerformer. I've heard some demos with NotePerformer, though. For a quick playback I suppose it's fine. I haven't found any demos that could pass as a decent electronic score, yet. There's a decent one here: https://soundcloud.com/douglas-gibson/batman-noteperformer-2, but even then, there's a lot more to be had if we're talking final product, IMO.

My personal take is that you shouldn't need to test out your score since you're able to hear the score in your head, where it was composed in the first place. If you're checking for errors, the Sibelius sounds should be more than adequate. If you're making a demo or a final track, I'd suggest starting a second file, use Sibelius as a sequencer (without regard to how it looks notation-wise) and use your Cinesamples to play the parts in in real time (I'm assuming Sibelius can do this, yes?). I've always been an advocate of performing parts in real time and capturing expression through controllers like faders, pedals, wind/breath controllers, optic controllers, etc. I just think the end product is more musical. Here's an example of a snippet from Fauré's Sicilienne I created in Digital Performer using EWQL Pianos Platinum and Audio Modeling's The Cello with a WX5 wind controller: https://soundcloud.com/jonathanprice/le-sicilienne-poc. I find sequencers a great tool to create in-the-box scores, especially on the mixing end of the spectrum. But even on the MIDI end of the spectrum, I was able to play the cello line in free (no click), and then go back and quickly create a tempo map so I could play the piano accompaniment with click. Maybe that's what you're doing in Sibelius already (while trying to keep everything in one file), but If it's difficult to do that in Sibelius (whose primary purpose, after all, is notation), Reaper is an inexpensive sequencer ($60) that has similar, if not more, features than Digital Performer (which has a current crossgrade price of $195 and is normally $395). And, of course, there's Logic and Cubase.

Jonathan - I agree. Much better for use to demo or do a quick listen to a jazz chart. I purchased it because it seemed to do a better job at allowing me to use standard drum notation.

I have since purchased a drumset from Native Instruments (same company as Kontakt) called, "Abbey Road Modern Drums" and then purchased a Sibelius soundset for it from "The Soundset Project". It works pretty well and also gives me standard notation for the most important features of that Drum set. I am currently using it to provide a jazz-themed score to my current film.

www.native-instruments.com/en/products/komplete/drums/abbey-road-modern-drummer/

www.soundsetproject.com/soundsets/native-instruments/abbey-road-modern-drums

Kerry - without going into a lot of detail, I have been aware and following the dorico development ever since the team left avid and moved to steinberg. I have had multiple discussions on their forum about their security paradigm/framework. I will not try out Dorico until they allow me to purchase a single license and use it either on my desktop or laptop (not simultaneously) without using a hardware security key - sort of like the way SIbelius currently works.

I would go right to the ASCAP web site for more info

I do not think the PROs (like ascap) will help much on this unless you are performing just the cover music live or online (like from a soundtrack album). PROs don't normally get involved in synchronizing music to film. You will probably need a 'sync license' from the owner of the copyright - in this case probably Disney who owns all of Star Wars. Since you are not using a pre-recorded track you will not need a 'master use' license since you will likely have a contract between you and the 'publisher'/producer (which could be the musicians - I can not tell) for the creation of those cover versions.

OK

for film you must get a sync license from the composer/copyright owner. If you use a pre-recorded track, you also need a "master use" license from the publisher/record company. If you are not including it in a film but just playing it during say an art exhibition, then you need to contact one or more of ASCAP/BMI/Sesac (or the appropriate royalty organization for the country you are in) to pay royalties to them on his behalf.

What studios and filmmakers often do to avoid paying high licensing prices is to contact a composer, provide the music track they like (which we often refer to as a 'temp track' since it is temporarily placed in a film to give the composer an idea of the style/feel and placement) and ask them to write, arrange, and perform/produce music that 'sounds like' the original but at less cost. Another option is to contact a web site of music and using search parameters to find a track to license that sounds like it (or in some cases they can contact the site and make the request and have someone search for them). This is often done, for example, by wedding videographers (who overlay music which they get typically by singer/songwriters etc for around $50 per song versus thousands for an original popular one). If you want an example of site, try www.musicsupervisor.com. This is one of many.

Hi Joel, Thank you for your in depth answer. If I write to the composer and he gives me his written permission will that suffice ? I am just a lone person with no company attached.

Make sure that you have something legally sound which specifies exactly what you can or can not do and what the cost is (or that it is no cost). Otherwise, you may risk the possibility of getting into a 'situation' with the composer that could impact the film after it is released. For example, he may only permit you to use the WAV file exactly as is and you may not have permission to trim it, delete parts or otherwise use it in parts. This is but one situation. You really don't want to assume anything in terms of use. Some composers may say OK and then when they hear it used get all 'bent out of shape'.

Wow! Thanks again, Joel, for your expertise . It sounds like it's better to try and find a new composer to collaborate with from the start. This piece is 90% images and music .

there are enough people here who would offer their services. good luck.

It's a phase problem not an avid problem, look in the audio suite and use 'invert' that'll solve it. Could be the way your camera converts the audio or whatever software compression you're using. If not, check your wiring could be wired incorrectly internally it's happened before to me once.

Ken - not sure I understand your point. I write music and supply it normally to the audio editor as a single 16-bit WAV file (mostly 44.1 but sometimes 48). Most of the time, the audio editor mixes it in fine. Occasionally (already twice this year), the music was put into the center and sounded mono. My contact the last time this happened said it was a default in avid (or perhaps a preset), the imported everything to the center.

This has nothing to do with a camera - the audio is a produced stereo music file.

What daw are you using?

Hi Joel, yes this is sad true. People are afraid in some way from online collaboration. I don't know why. But. Today with possibilities of technology which we have it doesn't make sence. I worked for two videoediting companies in past, both based in NY and all our work goes through skype/dropbox. And it was really nice collaboration. Maybe some people just didn't jump into the 21. century for now. :) Who knows.

any relation to shane irwin producer in Nashville?

I Have a red hot true story for a netflix series. need writer/s. revPopsI Have a red hot true story for a netflix series. need writer/s. revPops

Here Is a picture of my piano. I sometimes wonder what would have happened if I had gotten Bagpipes instead.

Ah yes :) the Hip-Hop artists piano (no offense to anyone who writes hip-hop of course)

I use it to to practice scales.

I hear music in my head. I have over 100 copyrights. I compose classical to rock, jazz to blues, pop to punk. I however cannot get a job they say I am autistic savant I say everyone here is stupid as mud. Lets collaborate http://www.hishousemedia.com

postscript - having thought about this for the last day, I decided to upgrade from the entry version of Sampletekk's C7 to its full version "7CG MKII for $50 (prices currently 50% off, a full non-upgraded version is $74.50). BTW - They all use the full Kontakt sampler. www.sampletekk.com/grand-pianos&product_id=248

I am a guitar player, but I use the piano just as much. I find the piano is so suited to moving around the melody. At least getting the first notes that I have in my head down. But once I have that, I actually like to work on the articulations of the instrument in question within the melody. I use the guitar for finding my underneath big riffs. The things that the cello or double bass or other instruments will be doing. But then again, it's just as a basis. Afterwards I do try and actually use the articulation of the instrument. As far as go to piano, I almost always use ADDICTIVE KEYS Grand. But I screwed around with it for a while, changing the mic placements and such to get the sound that I wanted. And then of course I love the frozen piano sound. Those are my 2 favorites.

This one submission for HL, I wrote using piano and violin first, after listening to other examples. Playing drums, it was last this time, adding Timpani for added effects within piece.

If I’m doing jazz, lay down basic parts in Logic, then record drum / percussion parts.

Thanks for the horizontal tip; sometimes I am looking vertical for interesting sounds to add within music. Yes, progressions make for better music.