Screenwriting : Commercial enough by Billy Dominick

There are many logline formulas. I use: WHEN, the inciting incident happens, A SPECIFIC PROTAG, MUST, the objective, OR ELSE, the stakes.

I think that both fathers try to restore the wall doesn't make sense. Usually one (mostly the rich) wants to keep it up and the poor wishes to pull it down.

Maybe you find this helpful: http://www.norman-hollyn.com/535/handouts/loglines.pdf

Hmmm. Wasn't it that the World Champion had problems too and needed this fight for his own career as well? it's a while ago I watched this movie.

Billy: I think you can do better. I don't think you need to identify that the trainer is sexy or Hispanic. Something more like: "When a romance blossoms between a mob princess and her cash strapped fight trainer, two fathers will stop at nothing to keep their daughter's polar opposite worlds from colliding."

Billy, check this link out. THE INSIDE PITCH is an entertaining and educational live half-hour (or longer..) show that features screenwriters pitching their story ideas to WME Story Editor, filmmaker and educator Christopher Lockhart. It’s a fun, fast and unpredictable 30 minutes! http://www.blogtalkradio.com/theinsidepitch Chris, is a dear friend of mine -- one who WALKS the WALK! When you get to the site, you can sign in, listen to earlier episodes, including his final, upcoming broadcast (Episode 24) airing on June 22, at 9:30 PM on THE INSIDE PITCH. Enjoy.... :)

Eric: the closest I can get to Rocky for my movie would be A black belt teachers a mob princess the ways of Kung Fu but the student must weave through the teacher's defenses for a shot at her heart. Phillip: Thanks for the kind words. I think this will be my new log line: Craving the kiss which set her heart on fire, a mafia debutante chases a female motorcycle racer while their fathers try to restore the wall between the rich and the poor. It showcases the inciting incident: The kiss. The goal for the debutante: the racer. the opposition: their fathers.

Hi Billy. I think the end of the above log line makes their fathers sound "do gooders". (Their fathers try to restore the wall between rich and poor). One is supposedly Mafia, and both dads oppose their daughters relationships. I would make them more conflicting and edgy. Eg Their bitterly opposing fathers.......the shanty town and up market Atlanta divide, ....etc . I think your idea is great, and original, and hope you get the first draft out soon.

Debbie: Does this sound better in terms of the fathers: Craving the kiss which set her heart on fire, a mafia debutante chases a female motorcycle racer while their classist fathers go to extremes to rip them apart.

or how about this: Craving the kiss which set her heart on fire, a mafia debutante chases a female motorcycle racer while their fathers fight to rebuild the wall between the rich and the poor.

Hey Billy: You are most welcome. The problem still remains that your logline actually sounds like parts of two different loglines put together. How do these two things interrelate? 1. the debutante and the racer storyline 2. Fathers rebuilding class structure wall storyline That's your missing link.

how about this then Phillip: merging them with one word change: Craving the kiss which set her heart on fire, a mafia debutante chases a motorcycle racer despite their fathers' fight to rebuild the wall between the rich and the poor.

or how about this: Craving the kiss which set her heart on fire, a mafia debutante chases a motorcycle racer despite their classist fathers' extreme attempts to keep them apart. I want to show how the only reason the fathers are against the relationship is because of the difference in their social class.

Billy: Yes, definitely better but I'd find another word other than "classist" to describe antagonist fathers. Even rich, or elitist is better. But you're on track sir!

only one of them is rich. but both of them are classist

Hi. Re @debbie further up in thread. I would change word classist , as others have already suggested, and embellish a bit more the fathers personality traits, since this is the conflict. Also the sentence felt too small. I would put something like. " A beautiful dancer with a hierarchical mafia father, hotly pursues a motorcycle racer from an oppressed part of town. The two women ride into a storm of prejudice, from both their illiberal and dogmatic dads." Not perfect sorry, but playing with ideas, and it's late. Happy Sunday

How about this: Craving the kiss which set her heart on fire, a mafia debutante pursues a female motorcycle racer from the ghetto while their dogmatic fathers fight to rebuild the wall between them. I described the racer as female because one of the readers said they got surprised later on that my pitch was about a lesbian love story but the only prejudice in my movie is the fathers' mistrust of the other one's social class.

They're not always but I wanted it to be clear that both of the characters in the movie are very feminine. i.e. not trying to look like a tomboy.

Maybe add a personality qualifier to show the differences even more. Like a "hardened sexy.." trains a "spoiled deb...". Good luck, BD.

Sorry, but "sexy" is not synonymous with "feminine." Frankly, defining a female character as "sexy" seems a bit trite, yes? Here's a more straight-forward logline: "When an upperclass mafia princess falls for the motorcycle racing daughter of a blue-collar worker, the two lovers must battle their class discriminative fathers in order to bring their two worlds together."

Beth: I advised Billy earlier in the thread the I'd leave off both "sexy" and "Hispanic". And your logline is more along the lines of what he should be using.

Yes, I saw that, Phillip. Great advise. I wholeheartedly agree and echoed your logline suggestion. :) I do think simple clarity is best for this convoluted story. If the main obstacle is the fathers' discrimination and prejudice against each other's social class and NOT the fact that their daughters are gay then that needs to be crystal clear. Anything else gives the suggestion that the two lovers are up against two fathers who are opposed to their sexual orientation.

Beth: agreed.

Phillip's suggestion is why I dropped using Hispanic or sexy in my description. my last comment concerning sexy was in regards to Oliver's question about "why are Hispanic women always sexy?" how about this which points out the discrimination while keep in the inciting incident:

Craving the kiss which set her heart on fire, a mafia debutante chases a motorcycle racer from the ghetto while their fathers fight to rebuild the wall between their social classes. Craving the kiss which set her heart on fire, a mafia debutante chases a female motorcycle racer from the ghetto while their dogmatic fathers fight to rebuild the wall between them. which one sounds best? or how to modify these without throwing out the kiss because I think most people could identify with someone hungry for that special kiss.

early in the movie even after the inciting incident, it is mostly a one sided love story until the racer finally begins to realize how deeply she cares for the debutante.

Billy, consider dropping "craving the kiss which set her heart on fire;" we're talking about a logline here which needs to capture the plot of your story. Please forgive me, but it seems you are in love with that phrase, which may work better in the script itself or perhaps in a synopsis, however, at the logline it seems a bit indulgent. Your story has no many elements and is very convoluted; at the logline you need to simplify it; be clear; be concise. By stating "a mafia princess falls for the motorcycle racing daughter" that in itself implies that the mafia princess is the one that has fallen; that she instigated this relationship. You don't need to spell out all the specific details at the logline. You just need to capture the plot and tone in an intriguing manner that creates interest in your story. Other details will become apparent once someone reads the script. You also don't want to confuse your audience. "Debutante" is a bit confusing. "Dogmatic fathers fight to rebuild the wall between them" -- I'm not sure what that means? What wall? You haven't established what that means? Is the "wall" a literal reference or a figurative one? If so, what? It's not clear what the stakes are or what you are describing. At the logline, you want to give just enough to set the tone of your story, clearly present the story plot and genre; and intrigue someone to want to know more. :)

Beth: Excellent analysis.

I was in love with that phrase. Just like in a long ago pitch, I asked the reader the question "Do you remember the first kiss that set your heart on fire?" and then I mentioned that's what the mafia princess was looking for. @Beth and @Phillip, thanks for all of your kind suggestions. Do you feel this log line would be appropriate? I'd like to come up with a different way to describe the fathers while still keeping in mind that classism isn't their only objection but for now I'm borrowing Beth's description of them "class discriminative fathers" A mafia princess falls for the motorcycle racing daughter of a janitor so the girl must battle their class discriminative fathers in order to realize their true love.

Fathers representative and proud of their different social classes clash when a budding romance of their daughters develops. IDK. Seems like a weak and redundant storyline but I'm not much on romance and there are a lot of rehashed idea's that work. Good luck, wish you well with it.

Billy, please feel free to borrow whatever. I'm just happy to have been of service. ;) Ummm, now I'm struggling with a sense of stakes. "Realize their true love" seems too small, maybe? I also would suggest starting it with "when," it's more active. After that, I'm a little lost because I don't quite know the story conflicts. Before, I was just trying to steer the logline away from the gay element being a conflict. If that is not the case, then perhaps something like: "When a mafia princess falls for the motorcycle racing daughter of a janitor the would-be lovers must overcome their socially prejudice and old-fashioned fathers in order to have a chance at true happiness."

how about this for stakes? When a mafia princess falls for the motorcycle racing daughter of a janitor, the girls must battle the social prejudice of their fathers in order to waltz together at the debutante ball.

When a mafia princess falls for the motorcycle racing daughter of a janitor, the couple must battle their class discriminative fathers in order to waltz together at the debutante ball.

Well, dancing at a ball seems small -- however, perhaps a very big deal for this couple to take a social and personal stand at some hoity-toity, small-minded, bigot, elitist event. Hey, if that's the story, that's the story! ;) Again, perhaps it's deciding what story elements are key at the logline. What best captures the story plot and tone. :) Again, I wish you the best with your script, Billy!

Oh, I suggest not using the word "girls" it makes them sound like friends, not lovers or love interests. Perhaps "young lovers" or "couple" would be better. :) Again, best to you!

I changed "girls" to "couple" in my earlier comment instead of posting the log line again. love interests definitely but lovers only comes close to happening after prom but the scene stops before they ever get into R rated territory.

You know I actually thought about this idea a little while doing something else. This could be a really good story with complexities and stakes and while the story is about the two girls there could also be complexities and extreme internal conflict for the fathers like one being a poor blue collar fellow and one being a prominent man in the community and overcoming their perceptions of what life for their girls should be allowing for what the girls truly want instead of what the fathers think they need. Perhaps with some work it could be something fresh and a feel good movie of acceptance. The stakes aspect could be simple acceptance realizing demograpic and upbringing doesn't make a difference, the times of the world around them is changing and realize acceptance of change doesn't mean loss of tradition. Maybe that's it; the stakes are Perceived loss of tradition with acceptance. Acceptance can be a huge stake in and of itself. Logline: "Fathers having angst due to perceived loss of tradition oppose their daughters who have angst due to passion and oppose their fathers." IDK. Just trying to help and maybe this isn't as weak and redundant as I first thought and maybe somebody else can help with direction of your story and work the logline I suggested better or different. It doesn't say the girls are in love with each other and still tells in my view what the story is about. Good luck Billy I have to get back to thinking about some my own projects now.

@Michael--this one has a ton of complexities and stakes involving so many people: Romance, saving a gym for the underprivileged, prejudice involving social classes, immigration. all of it melded into one coherent story of romance in the vein of Romeo & Juliet. With the newest log line being: When a mafia princess falls for the motorcycle racing daughter of a janitor, the couple must battle their class discriminative fathers in order to waltz together at the debutante ball. Dancing at the ball could be small but when two people forbidden from being together attend the ball even after one of them is threatened with death becomes a great big deal

Cut it in half.

@Anna where would you cut it exactly? When a mafia princess falls for the motorcycle racing daughter of a janitor, the couple must battle their class discriminative fathers in order to waltz together at the debutante ball.

Focus on the characters, you can't tell who the main protagonist is. I could do it but you try.

2 protagonist (mafia princess and janitor's daughter) up against their fathers' prejudice. When a mafia princess falls for the motorcycle racing daughter of a janitor, the lovebirds must battle their class discriminative fathers in order to waltz together at the debutante ball.

You have logline fever. I've had it before.. It will drive you mad.

When I was young, I used to be able to stay up for five days at a time, too. Get back to work, Billy! :)

Perhaps defining the main instigator of protaginism is what Anna is trying to convey to you. I don't know if it is important to define in this specific story's logline. It's tough, I'm not a pro at it and as one guy in here might tell you, write a hundred of them and pick the best one. Yes, we've all had logline fever at least once. I will say I see it as four characters with arcing displacement of protaginism and antagonism, hence the complexity.

thanks to everyone for their suggestions. I believe I have the log line now which shows the main instigator of protaginism is the princess who falls for the racer. the opposition is their fathers and the main goal is to waltz together at the debutante ball.