Screenwriting : How long is that thing? by Phil Mitchell

You're doing fine. Comparisons between aspiring writers and his majesty or anyone else 'in the game' is not healthy for our career. We don't give our agent a multi-hundred-page novel because that's what QT does... Creatives outside the walls of Troy should adhere to current spec market specs. Ninety to one hundred ten pages for best results. Pick up a SCREENWRITERS' BIBLE for intel on the current spec market. Hope this helps.

Thanks Shawn, but don't you think that by leaving out so much script, just because it's the "current market spec" hurts what could be a great story?

Not at all. Just the opposite. A script that's too long from outside the pearly gates of Hollywood is doomed to failure from jump.

I'll check out your first scene. I'm a SCREENWRITING U PRO SERIES Grad, taken all of Truby's Master Storyteller lectures, Some of Scott Meyers Classes, gotten coverage from Syd Field, and much more. I think I can help you a lil bit :)

Thanks Shawn. In the first few pages I have had to cut out the main protagonist having sex with his step mother. That's something that could have travelled through the whole movie, giving him a reason for survival. (But it's all gone - it would have made the movie too long) I'll put up the script with the Log lines. As soon as I work out a Log line lol.

Is someone's "step mother" actually incest? They're only related through marriage not blood. What about if he had step sisters? Could he marry one of them? or would you call that incest?

Could be a case of overwriting. Screenwriting is terse, pithy. Edit out all the extra and unnecessary verbiage which may cut page count down significantly without compromising the story. You gotta think about production cost too. More pages more cost. Extreme high page count can be an instant "no" to producers for that simple reason alone. And as someone who reads a lot of scripts it is an instant "turn off" to be confronted by so many pages -- it's just human nature. I recently read Molly's Game -- whatta chore that was! 198 pages. Sorkin or not, I had to force myself to finish. Much prefer a quick, easy, entertaining read, like most readers. With a spec, it's not just writing a great story, it's also entertaining an audience of one, or rather one at a time. You gotta think about your reader's experience as well. ;)

Regardless, you lost me instantly with that icky subject matter. She's a mother. Family. Period. It's good you cut that element out. Many will have an adverse response and not wish to read it let alone see it.

I don't and won't. Never have. Who cares if someone is "established." That's no excuse or argument. It is truly disturbing how his films echo his own life controversies as if a confession. Some have said they regret ever working on his films.

About this notion that only Tarantino can write a certain way... ALL writing tools and devices are available to everyone, no matter who you are. It's a matter of HOW one uses those tools. And what Tarantino has is a proven, highly successful track record and he is a talented storyteller, writer, and filmmaker. He produces and directs his own work. In those opening 17 pages he creates a great scene with much tension. This particular opening is often used as an example of how to create tension. He doesn't break some sort of "rule" nonsense, he wrote and created a great scene. Period. Considering it only by page count is rather missing the point. It is also a gross oversimplification and only focuses on the irrelevant superficial rather than its substance. It's a great scene to study and learn from. :)

Audiences may feel otherwise. ;)

Phil, I hope this discussion is helpful to you. Page count is one of those topics that may spark debate. There are so many contributing, complex and subjective factors to consider in this medium. Style and creative intent too. But... whatever you are writing, just write it well, right? Lol! Best to you!

Three things new writers don’t realize when reading scripts - and I still fall into this category - is 1. You are usually reading a shooting script that is much longer due to camera and stage direction. 2) guys like Quintin Tarantino can write what they want because they are producing it and have immediate money available and fan base. So a 17 page scene can get by because he doesn’t go through readers with rules in order to get to producers. 3) In action scenes it depends how much detail you write. (You can say - he has a fight or you can detail how he fights) both will take up the same camera time. (I once read where Tarantino choreographed every step of every fight in the Kill Bill films - original scripts were over 200 pages each due to this - but he was also director so it was his notes for him self.)

I’m still very new at this but I’m slowly picking up a few things. Still a lot to learn!

Actually, depending on the project, *of course,* there really isn't *that much* difference between a shooting script and a spec... Shooting scripts will have scene numbers, additional camera direction (depending), the title page will list any additional writers (rewrites), studio or producer information, etc, what draft version, etc... There may be a title sequence added too, etc. You can find earlier versions of scripts, especially if first on the BL Annual Industry Survey of most-liked spec scripts for a given year before being produced and made into a film. *Hell or High Water* was originally titled *Comancheria.* ;)

Phil - just write TIGHT - squeaky tight. Nearly every formatting software adds two lines for a transition - so every 'CUT TO' costs two lines of very expensive script page real estate. Also, transitions throw a rapid reader off the story track.

My own view is that a screenplay should be an easy read that sucks you in. A lot of scripts I see look like stripped down final drafts - aimed at actors needing to learn lines. They do not make easy reading. I increase the descriptive passages for the first read - and strip them out later.

When George Lucas wrote star wars there was more than enough pages of a script, he had to split it three ways. At first he envisioned it as one film, three films later he was raking it in. His Ego shot up a lot, hence the reason he altered the original films during the 90's.

Thank you everyone for taking time away from your writing to help me. Special thanks to Beth for her many contributions.

Exactly what I was saying Laura. Nice to be those guys but we are not —— yet! Lol

Would you say, because Tarantino's the big mucky muck (Genius) Writer and Producer of his own movies. He's actually writing direction in minute detail for his own personal reference and use for when he's on set and actually shooting?

Well, yes and no... In interviews, Tarantino often talks about his screenplays as being a stand alone, considering them as if a novel or art. He talks a lot about his process, how he works, thinks, etc. Any Google search will bring up many interviews or talks he has participated in. So... perhaps get your answers directly from him. ;) As far as talks, I always enjoy The Hollywood Reporter Roundtable discussions. Tarantino's been in one or more, I believe.

Geez, they did movies before Tarantino became a household name.

Start reading scripts, stacks, read 5000 scripts.

So true. The more scripts you read the more you see various approaches and what works and what doesn't. What you respond to and what you don't.

Tarantino plays in his own ball park. If you submitted Pulp Fiction - you would never get that brilliant opening dialogue past the average reader. For the rest of us - it is STORY, STORY, STORY. And my own view is make that story as readable as possible. It needs to suck you in - or why would anybody be bothered to read it.

Great thread. What's getting bypassed here is the man's plan. If he or anyone on this thread plans on 'getting in the game' by contest or coverage then you should gather intel on page limitations etc. I doubt anyone on this thread can write a 200-page script and get rave reviews on any coverage. Feel free to post your pages and prove me wrong... However... if your plan is a handoff to your Hollywood buddy, do you. All depends on your plan.

The maximum nowadays is no more than 105 pages for a spec. Years ago the norm was 120 bur could go higher. Screenplays became less wordy and cut out camera directions so people should keep that in mind when they are reading production scripts. Someone writing on spec can do whatever they want but the more they drift away from what is considered the so-called industry standard the less chance they have of having any success. I know screenwriters are creative people and hate hearing someone say that but it is the truth.

at Dan G said is pretty much the hard core truth nowadays. I recomend new unbranded spec script scribes to aim for 100 pages - a few more or less ain't gonna matter. You can bump your gums about this all day long - but you're not going to change Hollywood.

I am fighting to get my screenplays to the 90 page minimum... :( With short stories, the maximum I could reach was 30 pages... One of the reasons I'm not into novels is that you have to make them at least 250-300 pages long.

I'm with you Victor, but I must be lucky, it seems that when I go to sleep in the twilight of waking up, new stuff just seems to come into my head.

I usually overwrite then realize half is fluff. Easy to get to around 110 with most. Under that is hard, but I suppose with more experience I will klearn to better pare action line.

Don’t know if it’s true but somebody once told me that each page of script was an average (and a very loose average) of 10 to 20000 to shoot. Regardless of the numbers and with so many budget productions now - less really is more.

Adam J Fernandes, page count norms stem from the average length of feature films, roughly 90-100 minutes or so—the rule of thumb is one page equates to one minute of screen time. Of course, that screen time depends on whose thumb is doing the measuring and the content/context of a specific film. Plus, higher page count generally equates to more production cost. As far as screenwriting contests, most will reflect industry norms but may also restrict page count simply for practical reasons too—they have thousands and thousands of scripts to read and judge within a certain time frame and longer scripts take much longer. Some contests charge more money for entries longer than 120 pages. :) Hope that helps!

Sometimes a read through can really be helpful. The script lines you say to yourself in your head may flow more easily then when actually spoken.

Yes Alessandro, sometimes I finish a conversation, read it back "out-loud" and it stinks. It needs to be heard in real life and in real time at the right speed with the right inference.

Phil Mitchell two month post. Did you read the entire script, “Inglorious Bastards” yet?

Sorry Dan been too busy writing and reading other stuff.