Screenwriting : COPYRIGHT issue. Sony movie recalls my WGA deposited 4 year old idea. Should I procede legally? by Marcello Mazzilli

No.

From my understanding of copyright law (which is admittedly far from perfect) you cannot copyright an idea. The core concept -- aka, in your example, a person who says yes to everything -- cannot be copywritten, only the actual written account of events (your script/dialogue/pitch) can be. You mention the Sony version has a different location, character motivations, and ultimately different story. That means you likely have no case, since you can't prove they're ripping anything but the concept which, again, you cannot copyright. People can write scripts based off the same general idea all day long so long as the execution of that idea is different. I'm afraid you're going to have to take this one on the chin, friend.

So how did Sony steal your idea?

I have to agree with Andrea. I have my (2) scripts copyrighted from the Library of Congress. I also have documentation. It was only $35 done on-line. If they outright use your EXACT script without your permission then you have a case. Otherwise this is something you should learn from and move on.

Andrea said it best.

Ideas are free for the taking so there is not a darn thing you can do.

Sorry but you can't copyright an idea. If you'd had a completed script and they took it and used it verbatim, you might have a case. Ideas, as Phillip says above, are a dime a dozen. Maybe you should have written the actual script instead of a four page "idea", and to be brutally honest, that's your own fault for not following through and doing the actual work of writing a script rather than messing around with registering a synopsis, which I don't even understand. Pointless.

It was an idea/synopsis competition... there was no need to write the whole script. It would have been different anyway. As I said the story goes in a different direction, but the main idea is the core.. and is identical. I heard about a guy doing a web series in the Star Trek world. There is a federation, there is teletransport from ship to Earth, there is a space date, etc... but names are different, no Kirk, no Spock, ... and he is having many problems for it

Doesn't matter. You can't copyright an idea and ideas are up for grabs. You already said the story goes in a different direction, so they've covered their bases if they did indeed use your idea. You have no case. This kind of conversation actually pisses me off a bit. Because THIS is why most agents, producers, etc do not accept unsolicited scripts.

I am also in the STARTUP business with two projects.. In this business nobody signs an NDA and ideas "float" around. But it's slightly different as usually you don't speak with "producers" (makers) but you speak with people who have the money. Even if they wanted to copy your idea they should start from scratch and give money to an expert.. they might as well give it to you. I am more careful when I am speaking with people in the same business. In this case... an idea competition.. you actually give out the idea to people in cinematography. They read plots and synopsis, the might discuss them with friends who might speak in teh evening with other friends.. all in cinematography business. Very dangerous". Let's say I had a written script and somebody changes the names, the location, maybe switches few scenes, deletes another few and inserts few new ones, adapts dialogues.... what then? I mean.. you will not be safe not even with a script.. and probably, in court, it will be left to the judge to see how much of the first script can be found in the second, scene by scene, line by line. I guess it would not be difficult to change the funny friend in a boring neighbour, the bar down the road where everybody goes, in the tennis club, etc... There has to be a point where things are recognised to match

Welcome to Hollywood. Get in line.

You stand a better chance of proving your script was stolen than proving an "idea" was stolen. Because there is no copyright on ideas. And quite honestly, I think Hollywood has better things to do than steal scripts. That's why they don't accept unsolicited materials, because they do not want or need the hassle of lawsuits from people crying over their "ideas" being stolen. Im not saying crooked things don't happen, we all know they do. But an idea is not a script. It's an idea. No copyright.

I believe you're talking about Axanar, Marcello? The problem is, even if they aren't using the names of the characters, they are still using licensed material from the Star Trek universe. The United Federation of Planets, the use of "Stardate: (insert year here)", the Vulcan race, the Klingon language; all of these things are staples of, specifically, the Star Trek universe. Though they are not directly referring to specific Star Trek characters they are still playing in the universe that Star Trek has developed. Now, if the creators of Axanar had set their their space war story in a brand new universe that featured new creatures to fight, new ships to fly, and new galaxies to explore? Fair play. But they likely wouldn't have gotten the recognition they did precisely because of the fandom that is attached to Star Trek. Same thing if the creators had set it in the Star Wars universe: they don't have to specifically name the characters Darth Vader, Obi Wan, or Leia if they're directly referring to the Rebel Alliance, using lightsabers, and have storm troopers coming out the woodwork. They've ripped direct stylistic elements verbatim from the source, which is the difference between your material and this example. But where they really ran into problems is they crowdsourced the material, meaning they made direct money from the license. Even with all of the above they may have gotten away with it until they started making money. Once you start taking money from the parent company, a lawsuit is coming your way.

Jody.... Nobody is accusing somebody of STEALING.. That is a bad word.... As I said, people talk, and someone might have been indirectly INSPIRED by what he has read or what a friend of his has read.. or what a friend of a friend.... you see where I am going. This doesn't mean (I am talking in general here.. not strictly about movie ideas) there will be no basis for suing. If I invent an engine that somebody has invented before, and is already patented, the Patent Office will NOT grant me a patent, even if I had no way of stealing the idea from the first guy. They will not grant me the patent just because the Idea is already deposited. Proving or not a stealing/spying process is NOT important. What is important is the idea itself. I understand that with movie ideas is different. It's obviously more difficult to understand "borders" between different ideas and is more difficult to track something that can be transferred by simple word of mouth. I am just trying to point out that even if there is no active stealing, spying, etc... you still can't be entitled of intellectual property if another person has done it first.

Uh, if you're contemplating a lawsuit against Sony for using your idea, then yes you are talking about stealing. There are no intellectual property rights when it comes to ideas. You asked if people here thought you had a case and were told no, repeatedly. A patent is completely different than a 4 page synopsis registered with the wga, not a valid comparison. You could certainly waste your time and money trying to sue them, but as others have said, you're better off to move on.

And what we're telling you, Marcello, is that the base level of inspiration is worth nothing in the copyright world. There is a difference between a patent and a copyright for a reason, and while you may be able to patent an idea you cannot copyright it. The difference between the two is execution. The borders between ideas are as simple as this: if one person describes an object in one way and copyrights that description, they own that specific description of it. Another person is completely able to describe the exact same object in a different way with no recourse; they own that separate description of it. Same base idea, but executed in different ways. Now if the first person in this example describes the object in a specific, recognizable way, and the second person also uses that same specific, recognizable description in their own work, then the first person would potentially have a case for copyright infringement, but they may not depending on just how closely the second person stuck to it. In your first statement you flat out told us there are no similarities between your initial pitch and Sony's work aside from the idea. The characters are different, the location is different, the plot is different. Because you didn't actually write it, the dialogue is automatically different. Nothing is the same aside from the base idea. And as has been said ad nauseam in this thread, that is not enough to claim intellectual property. You have no case here, Marcello.

I understand that you al are telling me there is no cause. I am following the discussion to understand better and just for the sake of knowledge. Take my YES MAN example. The "Say always YES" idea goes through the whole movie. Is not just the start. Is the whole concept of the movie, from the beginning to the end. Obviously it's very easy to change what happens. Say YES to a trip tu LV or to Paris and the whole story gets a different spinn.. but when you are in Paris you still go on saying YES. Hope you understand what I mean. The things that happen can be totally different but the power of the "Say always YES to anything" is enormous compared to the execution of the script. It's not just... a guy finds out his best friend has a romance with his girlfriend... I mean.. is the actual whole CONCEPT of the movie. I hope you see the difference here.

Concept, idea, same same. Can't be copyrighted. The end.

And at the end of the day, if the guy who says yes to everything goes on a completely separate journey in each story, then the fact that they are all people who have to say yes is irrelevant. You can have 'Yes Man Goes to War', 'Yes Man Takes a Trip', 'Yes Man Joins Congress', 'Yes Man is Hit by a Car', 'Yes Man Joins a Conga Line for One-thousand Three-hundred and Seventeen Minutes and then is Tricked Into Selling the Cure for Cancer to a Major Druglord'. All of those things start with the same idea -- a man is forced to say yes and must continue to do so throughout the film, but in the end they are telling different stories. Even if you have 'Yes Man Goes to Paris' vs. 'Yes Man Goes to Las Vegas', if the guy in Paris falls in love but the guy in Las Vegas goes broke and gets his kneecap bashed in by the Mafia and THEN falls in love, it's a different ballgame. This is the difference -- they are all valid under copyright law. Same idea. Same concept. Different execution. All valid.

Yes Man gets hit by a car??? Lol!!! :-D

Andrea... Wouldn't you treat the GUY THAT SAYS YES like the STARDATE ?

Not necessarily. The presence of the guy who says yes without anything else is not necessarily enough to warrant a lawsuit, nor is the existence of a line like "Stardate: (insert year here)" in another work. But coupled with other things, like costumes, named planets, specific languages etc. that becomes infringement because you are blatantly taking multiple things specifically associated to a copyrighted property. The reason they paid Danny Wallace large sums of money for the rights to his book is because they wanted to avoid the opportunity for him to POTENTIALLY sue them. Wallace is not the first person to 'Say Yes to Everything for 'x' Period of Time' and write a book about it -- Shonda Rhimes released a book about that same thing just last year. The reason they paid him is because they took bits and pieces of his specific experience with that challenge and put it in the movie, and those specific bits of his story could have warranted a lawsuit. It's not the fact that he said yes to everything, it was the parts of his story that they wanted to use that warranted them getting the rights to the book and protecting against litigation.

Ok... I think I have the picture here.. Thanks to all.. specially Andrea !

I would not sue. As Jody said a concept, idea cannot be copyrighted. Even the MAIN idea.

No, do not waste your money please. I second, third, forth everything people have said regarding the fact you cannot protect an idea. It's the script that you protect.

Where was the connection from a script contest to Sony making a movie similar to your idea? Name the players involved, from contest readers & Judges to producers, writers, Executives at Sony.

Jim... can you explain the difference. What should I do in the future? Dan.. Can't prove any connection. Nobody wants to accuse someone of stealing but if it was possible (we're understanding is not) is just a matter of comparing who deposited first and not of finding a chain of people that transmitted the idea. Like with a patent. they don't cae if the previous depositant can prove or not I copied. He was there first. End of story

@Jim I don't think in this case it matters, as it was an idea for a script, not a completed script. @marcello was Sony part of the contest you entered?

Jody... I didn't check the name of every person. It was 4 years ago anyway... And as I said it would not be important. Big production companies get ideas, scripts in many ways. As I said it could be a single guy who tolda friend who told another.. it's almost impossible to prove the WILL TO COPY.. and I don't think there is a WILL... Just... the idea got to a person who worked around it... that's all.

And many people have variations of the same idea. Like, all the time.

There is no copyright in an idea. Never was, never will be. If there are specific elements lifted, names, facts etc., you MAY have a claim but you are going to have to prove the defendant probably saw and read your work.

No disrespect to anyone but this is exactly why domestic and international media companies have submission policies. It's why I follow standard policy and cannot accept unsolicited submissions. The above is a great example for people who don't understand why most buyers and reps don't have an open door policy, who question the need for such a stringent submissions policy. Imagine all the trouble and bad blood.

@Regina, yes I commented above, this is exactly why no one accepts unsolicited material anymore.

Don't dwell on it. Write something else. In fact write many. Write. Write. Write.

Any entertainment lawyers in here? Who might want to share their knowledge without charge of course. Maybe write a blog on the subject, using the above example? Can someone pass this to Happy writers or RB?

Thanks, Jody. Sorry I haven't read every post in the whole thread. Thanks for making that point!

Before suing Warner Bros, maybe you could write to them a friendly email addressed to their legal department, saying that you find this similarity strange and you would appreciate some explanations. Maybe it was just a coincidence. If they don't respond and if the similarity is too obvious, then I think yes, you should take it to court. Best regards,

Maroun, that's a complete waste of time and any costs would be a complete waste of money. Sony won't respond and that lack of response proves nothing.

@Maroun yeah that might get a laugh out of Sony. Nothing else.

@Pierre & Jody, well there's nothing to lose, except 10 minutes of writing an email :) right?

On the same subject, Disney's Lion King offers a great similarity with an old Japanese Anime: the Japanese creator's only reaction was saying he would be flattered if the great Disney took inspiration from his work :) http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/27/lion-king-kimba_n_6272316.html

You suggested taking it to court if they don't respond so yes, that will cost money.

@Pierre, only if the similarities are TOO obvious, not a vague inspiration but a clear rip-off. Thanks,

@Maroun, you realize the original post is about concern over an idea being "stolen"? This isn't about a script or anything that was valid in regards to copyright, etc. Ideas can't be copyrighted and therefore cannot technically be "stolen".

I am not trying to be cruel, nasty or negative. But the writer is the cheapest part of a film production so they don't save much by not paying the writer. Plus they had to pay someone to write the script (if they did see and take your idea). So what was there motivation? Wouldn't have been cheaper for them to pay you to write the script and avoid any possible risk? There is a standard clause in most agreements with production companies that states that you (the writer) acknowledge the fact that there is a great likelihood that they (the production company) have or currently are in development of a story that may be the same as the work you are submitting. There is a Silver Lining here. Your ideas are the type that do go into production. So go have more ideas. An idea has no value, it is all in the execution of the idea. The idea is a great starting point, but it is not the movie. Look at all the Batman movies.

Jody is right and unless you have a half a million dollars or more you want to give a lawyer and spend a lot of time dealing with one I would just go produce another movie if I were you.

@Maroun, Jody's right. It doesn't matter how similar the movie is to 4 pages of an idea, there is no case to pursue.

@Jody, ideas are not subject to copyright, that's undebatable: but he also mentions "strange encounters" happening during the movie. How similar are those happening in Yes Man to his screenplay? Maybe someone did read his script and took some ideas after all? Anyway, what's the harm in pointing out similarities between a box office hit and one's script?

Jody and Graig.... I never used the word steal and I agree on Craig's point. What MIGHT have happened is just a word of mouth and some passing of inspiration. I don't think Sony would do it if they had known somenody has put it onnpaper first and even tge script writer pribably was just inspired by a friend that heard it from a friend... So.. Again... I DON'T think there has been any stealing on purpose here.

@Maroun, you need to read the discussion, there is no script, just 3-4 pages of an idea.

You have to have a solid paper trail that connects your script to their film. Proof that will stand up in court. If you don't have a solid paper trail, you have no chance of winning. Just move on and write a dozen more screenplays.

Dear Marcello, sorry, I must agree to all above as you really can't register an idea. Further, I agree to Steven above who's the only one who mentioned that it's better to register your script or synopsis and logline (ideas can't get registered there) at the Library of Congress. Here's the link: http://www.copyright.gov/eco/ It's not only better as I mention this in every thread about copyright since several months: I actually spent days to figure out if there is any similar page and offer to register your script in other countries. With one short answer: NO! This is worldwide the only page that counts when a case should come to court. There is nothing similar in the EU and I haven't found anything alike in other countries. Should anyone here know more I would be glad as I found this very strange and astonishing. In other words, the registration at the WGA doesn't shelter your copyright. It's just a registration and you can say I was first - but it's nothing legal useful. So, the idea has no copyright and your registration won't help you at court. Hence, please let it go and turn to something new. It's sad and painful and you find it unfair. But please use your energy for new projects and forget this case. The good thing is: You of course still can use your idea. Good luck and all the best. #love #bePositive

In the EU/UK, just WRITING it down gives you the copyright. You don't need to register it with anyone. Nor pay a fee to do so. If the WGA is toothless when it comes to legality and copyright, one has to ask what the value of it would be? You could, as easily, send yourself a copy of the script/idea etc., with a record of the date on it witnessed, and a receipt/stamp of the date showing it passing through the mail/delivery system, equally as well to "prove" you were first with that concept. The plain fact is that when someone has an idea, several other people will have similar (and in some cases, almost identical) ideas. Stephenson wasn't the only person making a steam train. He was just the first one to get it recognised. :-)

@David - Just writing doesn't help you when it comes to court. How will you prove you've been the first if the other part then had registered his idea at the Library of Congress for example? So the EU stuff is legally worthless. Same when you send it to yourself. This is not always and everywhere accepted when it comes to court. Meaning you totally depend on the Judge's decision. Same for sending it to your notary. Who then of course would charge you and probably higher than these $35 at the Library of Congress for each feature script. I really checked every case because I also found out that in the EU it can differ from country to country what is accepted as a proof for your copyright and what not. This is why I always recommend to register at the Library of Congress. Isn't it funny that you already differ EU/UK? lol. Can't wait for the result of the voting. Then, I totally agree to the strange thing that new ideas appear to many people at the same time. This is why so many Nobel Prizes for scientists are shared. Some people call this phenomenon the Holy Spirit. I don't know but it shows that we all are connected.

I agree it may be different in some parts of the EU, but most certainly in the UK if I write it down then it is automatically copyrighted. Anyone could take my stories and just change a few elements and have their "own" story, which is what they'd do anyway if they were stealing my ideas. I have timestamps on emails and files which prove I wrote what I did first. From talking to some people at Industrial Scripts, when the issue of script theft came up, it seems that people are scared of something that very rarely happens anyway. And, as already pointed out here, you can't copyright an idea. And a script thief will change some distinct elements if they really wanted to steal yours. So, save the $35 per script (someone, somewhere, is always getting rich off the scared/hopeful) and put it towards something better. :-)

lol how many people actually go to court over a screenplay they wrote? None of you are going to need to so just relax.

plenty of lawsuits against filmmakers "stealing" sources from unknown Writers. Hard to prove and win. Terminator Matrix Frozen The biggest "stolen" idea is facebook. I think the Twins received less than $100mil and Mr Zuckerberg's net worth $30bil+

Harlan Ellison, who was acknowledged in later releases of The Terminator, is hardly "unknown".

David. That is how it works. In the US. When you write something down it is protected under the copyright treaty . However unless you have the script registered with LOC or the WGA or whatever the equivalent is in your country you would have much of a chance of winning a lawsuit. To win you need admissible evidence to present in in court. I usually register with the LOC. However the WGA is not toothless because it is admissible evidence that you can use court to establish who wrote the screenplay and when. The idea that that you could mail a copy of the script or idea is not evidence that you could use in a court of law. Even if a judge allowed it all the other side would have to do is point out the fact that anyone can mail a copy of a script to themselves and open the envelope and stick another screenplay inside the sane envelope. The only thing a stamp on an envelope would prove would be when the envelope was mailed out and received not the contents inside the envelope. Also concept for a movie is not protected under copyright in any country. The only way to protect a concept for a movie or a television project would be to use an NDA and then the writer could sue for breach of contract.

It's not wise to attack one of the biggest beast in the jungle... But there is always more then one way to skin a dog, than only one... Sony has an entourage of law twister, and there is no justice to be found in the court system with out your own set of "them"... I quote you, "In Sep 2012 I registered at WGA an idea for a movie (3-4 pages long), NOT based on real events.". Hm, "3-4 pages", tells me that its not just a vague idea, but more the core of the function of your story... The standard "rule" I have got out of the many, many stories from the music, film and all creative arts is, "Your ideas and even works will get robbed, but don't make waves about it...". Your name and reputation is more valuable to protect and guard, then a fist full of dollars... Life is like a good old western, the bad guys always get hung - "Don't worry just smile...". ...but I will give you a good advice, that's free and can build your name, and reputation without the smoking gun. 1) Write down how you would explain to an audience, the core idea and how it structure a story. Then you give them the tagline to your story. Now tell your storyline with the structure you have explained, so the audience can hear that you know how to use the "idea structure". Then the audience will understand that it's your original idea, because you have now demonstrated it from an idea-structure into a storyline.

Wow... this post has gone far! I will try to get some firm points out of all this. I think we are understanding that an IDEA is very difficult to register... if not impossible. A whole SCRIPT is easier, not because is different, just because it is more detailed. Has locations, names, dialogue, micro-ideas in the plot, etc... So there are much more elements on which a judge can decide... But is not intrinsically different... at least.. I think. I believe whatever mean you have to proove you wrote it before a certain date is ok, in principle, but probably courts acknowledge and trust much more institutions like WGA or COPYRIGHT.GOV than self-mailed letters. I also understand, as it's obvious, that if you can proove some sort of chain..trail... that can show how and why from your idea in A it has got to Z then you might have some chances. I believe, as it is for music, that still there has to be some sort of expert that reads IDEA/SCRIPT A and then SCRIPT Z and is able to say if tehre is a sufficient number of key elements that are too similar to be just a coincidence. It happens with music. They compare a certain amount of consecutive notes, with the same timing etc etc... For a PATENT nobody has to show any trail of any kind. You can deposit an IDEA (in the form of a detailed project and possibly a prototype and not just an idea.. I think) if nobody has deposited something similar before. Nobody will accuse anybody of stealing.. It will just be a matter to see if it is (or it's not) in the database. As far as I understand COPYRIGHT is doiferent from PATENTS because nobody is going to compare your script with a database (they will NOT do it in WGA or COPYRIGHT.GOV). It will be up to you (and your lawyers) to evaluate if you have sufficient elements to bring the whole thing to court. Every now and then I read about a big company getting a PATENT for an IDEA-ONLY.... I know that for example ONE-CLICK-BUY from Amazon is patented. I really don't understand how this can be done. Recently I worked with lawyers to try to register some key elements of the basic idea for my IT startup and they told me is NOT possible. My idea (and almost any sofwtare startup you might here about.. including Facebook or similars) is made by a sequence of micro-ideas that make a procedure. Well, the lawyers told me that if just one of the micro-ideas has already been done, well, I can't deposit mine. So basically is impossible. Let's say yoour startup is TRIPADVISOR you'll NOT be able to register your idea because you are not teh first to get user opinions, you are not the first to list restaurants, you are not the first to make a search engine, etc.... so even if nobody has done before ALL these things together and you are the first, you'll not be able to get a patent for it. At least.. that's what they told me.

Marcello- I mean this with all my heart and all my soul. Sometimes you have to Let it go and move on. Turn it over to your higher power. You are upset We all understand. But please. Just let this one go. It's not worth it!!

That is what I will probably do.. This discussion has been very useful

I don't like to discuss patents but they are definitely difficult to get so they are two entirely different things.

Steven probably has the best advice. Life is too short, just move on.

You can't patent just an idea...it needs to have function. It needs to be 'novel'. (Yes - I do have one. And yes they are very difficult to get). Back on thread...move on dude.

Yeah, sorry friend..I agree with everyone else, you need more than just a few lines of an idea to go after a heavy weight. Now if you had a script, had talked to executives, meetings, etc...then you might have something. I think as writers, we all see things that are similar to our stories but as you grow and develop more, your work will become unique and have it's own fingerprint.

You can't copyright an idea anyway so I don't think you'd have much success suing a giant like Sony-Columbia. Goodluck.

I do this in the summer of 2020

https://collab.sundance.org/catalog/Cutoff-Time-2021-11-11-234003

Mel Gibson does this in late 2022

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt14824590/?ref_=nm_flmg_t_1_act

So, I sue multiple Academy Award winner and Hollywood mogul? C'mon...I beg the moment he recognizes my talent and hires me on his new project...Dude, ure residing on Lake Como (Clooney pays millions to live at)...just enjoy your well being and let go...