Screenwriting : Blacklist Evaluations by Tony Cella

My critique wasn't too bad. They pointed out a few problems with my script that I didn't see. I think every reader is different and it's kinda a scrap shoot. I'm look forward to trying out Stage 32's coverage service after my rewrite. At the same time, I submitted my script to SpecScout. They were bitter and mean. I had to check my credit card statement to make sure I paid them, I felt the were pissed at me for something.

I got one view so far, but no reviews. How long did it take for anyone to review and critique your script?

I have heard dozens of similar stories about Blacklist but usually if you write them and show proof of factual inaccuracies, they will give u a free review. what do u expect from readers paid $25 a script?

@John: A reviewer critiqued my script a week and change after the purchase. @Ron: I sent them an email, but this isn't the first time this has happened. @Danny: I see your reasoning, but the readers only have to read the script and write three paragraphs. $25 is more than I was paid to write and revise the script.

CJ, Thank you for the insightful analysis. The purpose of the thread is to discuss the Black List. Please feel free to open cans of whatever you like, as long as the carbonated spray originating within pertains to the website.

my friend had a similar experience

I got a bad review from a reader, who gave me a 1-paragraph recitation of the conventional wisdom about period pieces with little specifics about my script. The one character he mentioned, he got the name completely wrong. I complained and Black List gave me a free read. The second reader gave me a more accurate and thoughtful review. At this point I'm pretty skeptical of all anonymous feedback which costs $50-75. It just seems like too little money for it to be worthwhile for somebody to do a decent job, especially when you factor in the cut that the service/contest must be taking.

I've had my screenplay evaluated three times on The Black List. The first time I was thrilled! The reader understood my intentions, loved my characters, and didn't make fun of me for thinking a feature film could be sixty pages of novel style writing. The suggestions I was offered were helpful and I was comfortable with the tone. My second evaluation was certainly from someone who didn't understand my intentions clearly, and though he/she seemed to appreciate my characters, the suggestions were less helpful. Well, until I thought about them and realized three important things. One: Again, my characters were well rounded and real, because the feedback on them was consistent. Two: not everyone will agree with or appreciate my intentions. and Three: I need to make my intentions so clear that they are harder to miss, while still keeping my intended subtitles. A tall order! My third evaluation was wonderful! Although there was still lots of work I'd need to do if I want my thread to be strong (and I do!) the reader valued my intentions and appreciated the subtleties. I was even called brave! I think most feedback is valuable when we make it valuable. As with my second evaluation, I had to do the work of figuring out how to solve and understand the problems myself because the suggestions were a bit off base. But they were off base because my screenplay was still rather weak. Not everyone will like my screenplay, of course, but it's important that I find away to be sure most people understand it. Oops! Sorry about that! I just gave you a whole bunch of blah, blah, blah about my experience. But there it is! Also, if you're willing to evaluate scripts yourself, you can try Talentville. It's a community of screenwriters and you earn evaluations by evaluating. I think it's a really brilliant concept!! Good luck with your screenplay!! ~Tsara

Look, you don't go to Blacklist for the coverage. You go for the exposure. You just have to get great scores to get it. So, my advice is to make sure to get REAL notes and feedback from a consultant (like me, for instance) FIRST & make sure your script is ready for hosting on BL. I had 8 clients last year become recommended by Blacklist in their exec emails and 2 were among their 2014 most downloaded and recommended scripts of the year. One is now working with a MAJOR manager. But he went thru 3 drafts of notes with me before ever submitting to BL. Otherwise you're just throwing blind money hoping for better scores from diff readers.

Danny, I'm well aware. In order to gain exposure from the Blacklist, a screenwriter has to get positive reviews. I posted here to make sure my experience was a common one before assuming the evaluators don't show due diligence when critiquing scripts and leaving without giving the script sometime to be discovered. If I want coverage, I'll ask fellow screenwriters who will take a look at my work and provide feedback for free.

Tony, I wasn't simply addressing you. I was talking to everyone. you can certainly get free help from anyone you'd like. But if you're getting notes from writers who also aren't getting good enough scores on BL, then really what's the point? If youre gonna pay $300 to BL for script hosting, isn't it worth paying the same to make sure its ready to be hosted?

@Lisa: Once I discovered the low payment, I wasn't as surprised by the low quality evaluations. The token payment undercuts the service as a whole. Without legitimacy, the Blacklist is another sham. More free script hosting services may rise to prominence if Amazon Studios succeeds in producing a quality feature. Netflix should create a similar platform, which fits their wide-reaching business model, to find new content. @Danny: I'm aware of your broad target. I replied because this thread is about the Blacklist, not a means to further advertise your services.

Despite what you may think or assume, Tony, Danny makes a very legitimate and honest point. The Black List is not about coverage. It's about exposure. It has a specific function and works well if you have a well-polished, market ready, professional script. One should not post a script on that site that has not been vetted by a professional script consultant or at least been put through the ringer of rewrite/revision hell. Why waste your money? Or, rather, why not use your money more wisely to better achieve your end goal? It's just practical logic. Since you posted that you are a beginning screenwriter, I'd kindly suggest that you don't post on The Black List. You're probably not ready yet. Perhaps consider that the "missed key points" or the "factual inaccuracies" that the BL evaluators gave you was due to a lack of clarity in the writing. Perhaps their reviews are helpful to better your script. Missed points or confusion by readers usually hints at a much larger issue -- elements in your story were not clear. Your script may be lacking in story clarity.

You don't go to the BL for coverage, but if you're someone who doesn't have any industry connections, it's pretty unlikely anyone is going to read your script to rate it unless you purchase a read. So it probably isn't a good idea to post a script there unless you know at least one person who is going to read it and give it an 8 or better. Purchasing a read or reads is a crap-shoot. The main value of the coverage is in evaluating the legitimacy of the score you receive. For example, when the coverage is light on specifics about the screenplay or gets a character's name completely wrong, you have good reason to question the accuracy of the score your script received.

Read between the lines. While they have mention in many publications as they claim, they are not very in-depth. Don't be sucked in. I always read reviews or mentions by other publications first. I almost fell for it though. Check out the article about stage32 on the Forbes site. No one makes any false claims or gives false hopes. This business takes some work and some luck but if you research and don't make rash decisions I believe you'll have more opportunity for success. I've made a crapload of mistakes and probably still will but as far as a learning the craft sites there is no better than stage32. I'm not bashing the Blacklist. They even ask if you know anybody to specifically get your script to and that should key you in to a lot right there.

I have written ten feature scripts since 2007. I don't consider any of my scripts ready for BL. You should only put something on BL that gets SF or above in every contest you enter, and you have a permanent full-time job at which you make over 40k/year. Until then, use a peer review site. Here's the kicker though - nothing on a peer site ever averages an 8 long term, but this is the standard for BL caring about your script. The only stuff that gets 8 averages are friends (not crooked, just a large enough group of like-minded people with positive opinions of the writer) reviewing each other and the author pulling the script before others can review it. Less than 5% get to 7, and less than 1% get to 7.5, and long term the score goes DOWN because the audience extends beyond your core audience with self-selecting. A screenplay is a huge, complex thing rated on a whole bunch of criteria both objective and subjective - it's a chaotic system. Reception is not predictable and there is no such thing as universal praise, period. Meanwhile, a 6 average on a peer review site after say 10 reviews (common, 25% of scripts probably) roughly equates to QFs in major contests, and 7 equates to SF. So you can choose to throw your lot in with 7s on peer review sites. But it is always a gamble, and even after you redraft endlessly, the rating floor on a review site tends to only move up to 6 and the average to 7. If you get close to 7.5 long term (30 reviews), you are basically Jesus, but still not good enough for BL. Point being, BL has a standard basically never met in a large system. You are a slave to the binomial distribution - you are trying to overcome a theta of 0.02 (the average reviewer's percentage for giving an 8) over x many trials - you will go down unless you are lucky enough to have a non-representative sample at the beginning. I've done reviews for about 150 amateur scripts total in the last 1.5 years - I've given four eights. Also, the top reviewers on a peer review site (if they score reviewers) will give you better coverage than the BL. I can give you better coverage than the BL, for free, on Talentville. The resumes that justify charging for coverage aren't always properly earned, just like with everything else in life. Be wary of fee-based coverage providers. Some producers are idiots. There are idiots in every profession. With time, you'll come to know when they're wrong and it's not your feelings. Finally, I had the chance to read some of the highest-rated BL scripts. They did not strike me as unusually good. They were all good, but you could argue they weren't special. I could give them, you know, a 6 or 7, not an 8... Learn statistics Question everything

@Danielle I had a very similar experience. For the record, I started this topic to gauge public opinion regarding the evaluations. As stated earlier, I don't use the Black List for critiques alone; the website serves as a means for screenwriters without connections to gain exposure. The ratings, however, determine the quality of exposure and warrant quality analysis.

This has all gone a bit too much in one direction for me. Personally I don't think we should, by default, spend hundreds of dollars on consultancy and advance in all major competitions before submitting to BL. We just need to be aware of what we're getting into and that awareness tends to come from experience. We need to have an appreciation for how readers operate and what constitutes a good script in different people's eyes. We also need to have an awareness of how our own writing fits into the marketplace and how it's likely to be received by a panel of readers. Plus we need to know the flaws of average ranking systems and how BL works in terms of granting exposure. I was ten months into writing and had three features under my belt when I turned to BL. I didn't know where else to go and my only source of advice was the ScriptNotes podcast who'd featured the site and even an interview with FL. The first drafts of the first two scripts I ever wrote got 7's on there - great start, I even got a subscore of 8 for the first script. But then I came to learn, only via a thread DoneDealPro I might add, that a 7 counts for pretty much nothing on BL despite their FAQ suggesting otherwise. Worse still, having pulled the script with a subscore of 8, I'd inadvertently missed out on an email spotlight I didn't even know about. Gutted. Then I bought my one-way ticket to crazy town. I fell into the trap of thinking that, if I addressed the weaknesses identified in the evaluations, I would automatically raise my scores to a much needed 8 or, at worst, find myself on the TopList. Wrong. The subsequent drafts scored worse than the first, one getting as low as a 3, throwing myself into a spiral of confusion and trashing my average scores. I tried to address the weaknesses again, not easy when they were now contradicting one another, and found myself back in the 6's and 7's. By now I'm a drooling wreck staring at my screen with a crazy eye-twitch and it finally dawns on me, it's all BS, these people are normal subjective human beings, and just like when you ride home with a bunch of friends after seeing a movie, not everyone shares the same feelings about what they've experienced and opinions are strong. My frustration turned from my writing to the lottery I'd been playing. If I'd just gotten those higher scoring readers it would have been a totally different story, BL Top List within my first year of writing. But it doesn't work like that. Although I did make a studio consider list, yayz. The thing is, six months later, I was actually pleased I didn't get the exposure. I was learning fast and felt I was honing my craft. Despite my experience it did take me a while to get off the BL Kool-Aid. I followed a bunch of other writer's experiences too, I saw one writer score a 9 with one script and 8's with the others, they got a ton of downloads and not a single email. Another swung a 9 and got representation a month or two later. Another got a 4 and still managed to sell their script. While the numbers meant a lot personally they meant very little in terms of the bigger picture. I've often thought what I should have done with that money. Indeed I could have hired a decent consultant, but I feel what I should have done at that point is bought the books and read them. Actually what I should have done is just slowed the hell down and stopped trying to force my own Cinderella story. I should have kept my head down and written a crapload more for a couple of years. Maybe hired a consultant now, maybe just blown the money on a weekend away with my partner to chill out. The irony is I would feel less confident submitting to BL now than I did then. Despite knowing my writing is considerably stronger these days I'm also now savvy enough to realise it has a very narrow avenue of appeal that I'm happy to maintain for my own writing pleasure. BL was a baptism of fire for me, I learned a bunch, it was just more about readers than it was about writing.

RE: subjective - I sat thru a musical on Edgar Allan Poe that was a smash in CANADA in 2009 + a hit in London. Deadly boring: purely narrative w/ NO dramatic tension. Repetitious songs drag on for 7 mins. (Puccini's best arias are under 3 mins.) Two colleagues of mine wrote positive reviews -- and I wrote back asking them not to encourage plays that violate the rules of the stage. But to return to C.J. Walley's post - - obviously, what is a "worthy" script is so subjective. There are many standards ... including low and lowest.

Random Personal Sharing: As I mentioned, I've had my script reviewed three times on The Black List, and each time I was gifted with ideas that helped me strengthen my device. For me, the decision to host my screenplay there had everything to do with my own personal "issue" as a writer. You see, if I wasn't spending twenty-five dollars a month, I would certainly stop trying to get my work out there into the world. I've written one movie, I'm more of a novel writer than movie writer, and it sat saved quietly on my computer for ten years. I pulled it out and polished it up about a year ago only because I was trying to be a good example to my sons who are all aiming for careers in the movie biz. However, as soon as the work got too hard (or too scary for my ego), it would be real easy for me to save my document, pat myself on the back for writing a movie I love, and go on with other things. The thing is, I don't want to do that anymore. And I don't want my sons to do that. So, because I've had only good experiences with The Black List, because it's one of first places I found and I don't want to waste my time looking for things, because it's not overly expensive, and because it's easy to suspend script hosting when I've got zero dollars (which I've done a few times) it works wonders for me. For me, and my personal style, and personal needs. I haven't read all of the comments here (I'm kind of self-centered as a commenter, I'll admit it!!) but in skimming them I'm lead to believe we've all experienced something good from The Black List. Whether we got good feedback, crappy feedback, wasted money or feel our money was well spent, it's a place where we screenwriters have learned a bit about our craft and a bit about the business. I'll admit, though, now that I've discovered and become a fan of the Stage 32 community, I feel less like I need the same kind of push to keep trying. I really can't afford twenty-five dollars a month, so I've suspended my script again. Heck, I've gotten fabulous feedback from folks here for free! And, I was able to make true connections and friendships!! Anyway, I just wanted to share that. For some of us--okay, maybe just me!--it's too easy to give up if we don't create a situation that makes us feel obligated to keep going. Like twenty-five dollars a month for hosting. Of course, there are other places than just The Black List where we can do that, I just happened to feel comfortable there. Alright, now I've really let my crazy show! Well... we're all friends here, right?? Wait a sec! We're all creative here too, which means we're all crazy! Yippee!!! tee hee! Hugs and good luck!! ~Tsara

Well, to each their own I guess. Everyone has had different experiences with The Black List. Me, I've mostly stayed clear of it. I tried it for one month and stopped, not for any other reason than I felt I could use my money, my efforts and my time more wisely. I received an overall "okay" review from BL, found it helpful and did get several downloads. But, going in I decided upfront and regardless of what happened to only give it a month trial -- honestly, if nothing really happens in that first month, will it ever? Twenty-five bucks a month seems rather steep to pay for uncertainty. I can have uncertainty for free. lol! And, the more money you spend to try to better shape that uncertainly it still doesn't create any guarantees. I do believe it is not the best place for beginning writers. Many have lost a lot of money on that site and have come out of the gate a little too early, so to speak. Fine-tuning one's craft before exposure is perhaps a better course of action, however one chooses to do so. :)

Beth, I never disagreed with your or Danny's points. If you read my comment, you'll see that I asked him to stop self-promoting in the thread. He often uses the forum as a means of selling his services, which was not the purpose of my post.

No worries, Tony. I did read your comment clearly. I didn't see Danny's comment as self promotion, but rather a professional point of view, that's all -- a different opinion, I guess. Plus, he is well-aquainted with Stage 32 and those who run it. All threads are open to anyone to comment. :) Personally, I did use a script consultant in my beginning and it was incredibly helpful; priceless. It also saved me a ton of money, giving me some bearings on how to better navigate this crazy industry. The Black List has so many variables and subjective personal experiences, it's hard to assess its worth or not -- especially for a beginner. Generally, more experienced writers tend to fare better. Of course, there are always exceptions. :)

You tend to get anecdotal stories like that. Good for that writer but it's a one in ten thousand case. I had an actor recommend one of my scripts to a prodco last week after reading it via my loglines section here. It happens. You don't have to pay $25pm to get opportunities like that.

Don't hate the player; hate the game. ;-)

@Danny: There's no place for cliches in screenwriting. I have found the Blacklist to be generous with replacement evaluations when a reviewer messes up or you're new to the site. Besides InkTip, what websites do you recommend as alternatives to the Blacklist?

You could try Inktip. I here it's a decent site to post your project and hopefully get a producer to take a look at your work.

In regards to alternatives to the blacklist or even inktip, first you have to get clear with where you are and what you are looking for. In other words are you looking for feedback to gauge your writing or a script hosting site for the chance someone will stumble upon and fall in love with your script or are you serious about this as a career and ready to pitch and have decision makers read? Your answer determines your options.

I'm interested in the last two options, which aren't mutually exclusive. Without question, scripts hosted on the BlackList are produced. Other writers have had short films plucked off of InkTip and there are probably other services out there that cost less than the BlackList, but haven't been discovered yet. There was a time when Iggy Stooge dove into crowds in Michigan teen centers. Now plenty of rock musicians stage dive at shows around the country.

@Tony Actually, scripts hosted on blacklist have not been produced. Yet. Many Scripts on the real, professional Blacklist that comes out in December have been produced but so far I don't think more than 1 on the script hosting site has been produced. On Inktip, they've had over 1000 movies made but 98% of those are made for under $5M. so it all depends on what kind of script you've written. @Peter and @Tony, I think on a thread where someone is ASKING about where to get script critiques, its perfectly acceptable to mention my company. it was a direct answer to what was being asked.

@Danny: This thread was not a request for evaluations. The title is Blacklist evaluations. I asked for users to share their experiences with the website. One script has been produced on the BlackList. Inktip's numbers are skewed because they also host short screenplays. Writers have found representation and sold or optioned their scripts as well, proving the website's worth for young professionals. I'm not debating with you further.

ok well I did share my experience with the website, and my clients experience. If you don't like that, then that's your problem. I'm not debating with you at all.