Screenwriting : When do we put lighting and camera shots in our scripts (if ever) by Thomas Ray

I always encouraged people to make the scripts easy to read and FEEL like you want the story to feel. Put in what needs to be there but in general tell the story...if it is not mandatory to the story then you are wasting peoples brain space.

If ure not planning on directing the story yourself, best is to avoid any technical details and descriptions. Focus more on characters and their actions.

A spec script tells the story. You are not the director. Avoid technical details that interrupt the read. The action description informs or implies the shot and each director will have their own take on it. Scripts written by writer/directors or pro scripts uploaded online are Shooting Scripts. These will have all technical information added in before principal photography.

I consider "close on" and "another angle" and "insert" and "so-and-so's POV" (among others) as part of my storytelling toolkit. For example, I establish a scene where two people talk at gunpoint, and JOE needs to decide if he should trust FRED. They have intense dialog. Joe's just about swayed to Fred's side. CLOSE ON a bead of sweat trailing down Fred's temple. JENNISE and ROSA fight about their daughter being possessed by a demon, and hiring an exorcist. ANOTHER ANGLE showing their daughter hiding behind the open door, hearing every word. Your mind's eye can see those movie moment in a very specific way with only two words used. You don't want to overuse these terms, obviously, and when you do use them, make 'em count. These two quick-and-dirty examples deliberately illustrate the terms in light of character and story -- not just a random shift in camera angle.

Lighting and camera directions are not the storyteller's job... and they will be ignored b/c every director thinks they know best how to shoot a scene and you must respect that... unless it's absolutely crucial to the story. But even then, you only write what we see. ie -- you can say, "a bead of sweat rolls down his face." but don't say "CLOSE ON" a bead of sweat See how they both still say what you want? One way is preferred and one is not.

As a speculative scriptwriter, you are expected to describe the story as well as you can, and develop the killer dialogues. It is for the director to take a call, nay, decision, on the camera lighting, angle, and coverage. A scriptwriter will be stepping on the toes of a director, by packing all these notations-which will, in all probability, be dumped, for more reasons than one! So, again, tell your story well. That is what and only for that, writers are for. Unless it's a combo package of writer plus director, in which case, the stage is all yours! Cheers.

Then apparently a couple of producers did not know what they wanted or were talking about when they wanted ME to include this stuff in my script. I always DID think that was a DIRECTORS job and not my own as a writer---Thanks for helping clear my own doubts and confusion.

In general, you don't want any angles unless you are directing it yourself. But, in rare cases, they are okay - POV, WIDEN TO REVEAL, FADE TO BLACK, INSERT, MONTAGE, SERIES OF SHOTS - the big storytelling camera directions. But always avoid the mundane ones like the transitions - CUT TO, DISSOLVE TO, CLOSE ON, etc.and never say aerial shot or anything like that.

Frank -- NEVER write vanilla. ;)

Unless you are writing a script that you are going to direct yourself, never put in anything that tells other people how they should be doing their jobs on set or in post.

You do your job, the director does their job. Your job is the write the screenplay so that the director (and everyone else who reads it) imagines those things when they read it without spelling it out, the way you imagine those things when you read a novel. It's all about writing.

Never. Unless you're producing the script yourself or doing so in partnership with a director and have funding in hand. Only shooting scripts have that sort of info in them. You might occasionally get away with slipping in a CLOSE ON... or similar if it's absolutely essential to telling the story.

I would avoid it as much as possible. If you have a really specific look/vision, do your best to suggest it with your descriptions first. If the vision is conveyed well, and agreed upon, the director will figure it out and put it in anyway.

I would say the only time you would make such a note is if it's important it be that specific type of shot. Like if you're inserting a visual gag that calls for a certain shot, it should go in. Other than that, leave it out of the spec. The scene description should give the director an idea of you want to be looking at.

YES, I share those opinions I NEVER put such directions in my scripts--Besides it will make them LONGER. I just wanted to clear the confusion, as I had been told by a couple of production companies that they WANTED scripts with directions. --(How they defined "Completed") I did not submit as I agree it is the directors job--and I would have to cut dialogue to accommodate the info.

It is a waste of time placing camera directions in your screenplay not matter how clear it is in your mind how that scene should be shot. As soon as you hand the screenplay over to a director, he is going to make up his own mind (I am using the politically incorrect, old fashioned "he" here, so apologies if it offends any reader) and shoot the scene any way he pleases. A good director will always consult with the writer anyway, but camera directions should never go into your screenplay.

my first script was like this, completely how it should be filmed => i gave it to a friend (this was a couple of years back) and it was impossible to comprehend, so i only do descriptions and let the reader decide how it should look (which will be different for every other person anyway)

A screenplay is the blueprint of a story for a Director. If you are not the Director then the story blueprint is the essential element which shouldn't include camera angles unless you are the Director and then who cares what you write in the piece - you are the one interrupting the blueprint as Director/Writer. Another Director however may not appreciate you telling them where the camera is since that is what the Director does after they decide what the story really is about in their mind.

It depends on the impression you want to give off and how much you care for your craft. It probably doesn't matter quite so much lower down the food chain, but really you don't want anything to stop your screenplay going all the way, do you? If you're submitting your script to a professional to read, I wouldn't advise you add any direction - unless you want to look like an amateur, who doesn't understand the process. I wouldn't recommend that, as you want to look confident and like you know what you're doing as that is what get's people to invest in you! :) You want to produce and present the best quality you are able to professional standards. So you send out spec scripts that show you have an understanding of the process and your craft. The scripts that contain direction and scene numbers, etc are called 'Shooting Scripts'. These are created after the script development stage (the stage after you've sold your spec script). After development, the script is 'locked' as a 'Final Draft' script and from that the pre-production process starts and the 'Shooting Script' is produced. Filmmaking is very expensive and these protocols are important as dilly-dally and ignorance costs money and can sink a film. It's up to you, but personally I believe you'll want to present your work in the most professional way you can, so it has more opportunities.

Thomas – the basic answer in a spec script is never. The scripts that you get off the internet are almost all “shooting” scripts. The term “finished script” is a shooting script. If you are going to direct your story – then you will create the shot list, handle scene blocking, lay out your camera/lighting and bring out the best in your cast. Otherwise, let the Director do his job.

It's interesting to read the different takes on this question. I agree with everything written, yet I'll use 'Close On' or something similar ('Angle On') to spotlight, for instance, a gun in a character's hand. But I would never think to put lighting directions in a script; or any particular shot, for that matter. That's up to the Director and/or the Director of Photography) (DP). But if a certain shot advances the story or adds clarity for the reader, I'll consider using it. But that's just me.

These various observations seem to come from people who have differing concerns with scripting. Some are dramatic, others "writerly", and yet other cinematic. The accuracy in all of this depends on whether you have a company with numerous individuals handling distinct roles or a very small group that have have interlocking interest and skills...

Everything I have ever read about screenwriting has always said 'never use camera angles, or lighting suggestions in your script'. This is completely up to the director.

You got it Ruby.

In the seventies when I trained in London, the writer in those days did use terms such as close ups, pans, sudden cuts. Now days the screen writer hopes the director see's the script the same way the writer does. Golden rule today is let the director decide.

I don't. I write the script and leave it up to the director to position the shots and lighting.

I haven't read the other comments but just to put my useless two cents in... NEVER!

A screenplay is an outline for a Director to follow, once a Director has decided on a script. If the Director likes and buys the script, that Director would then pay someone to write a 'shooting script' which would include all of the light and camera angels. Your original script is the story - not the technique behind shooting the story, sans light and camera directions.

Mark - so that's how it works (an to think I been doin' it wrong all these years.)

Not wrong, just close and sometimes close makes the grade so its is really just a 'heads up' for future projects. Keep writing.

Never met Directors with money to buy scripts. A shooting script is NOT a narrative script. It is done by Director, Cinematographer, Line Producer, Prod Designer, or whoever Technical Advisor. It is simply a blueprint, a bunch of excel spreadsheets of every scene broken down, from shot list to lighting to cost, cast, budget, time, etc. Writers, dont worry about shooting scripts. That is not your job. At this point of production, you simply wait by the bank and pray a check arrives on 1st day of shoot.

Over the past few decades, I've worked as a spec writer, staff writer, a Line Producer, Producer, Director, Assistant Director and I started as a “Gophor”. I think I've got a pretty good handle on how it works. Now I'm a retired hyphenate; a Producer-Writer or maybe just an Indie Filmmaker – whatever. You do not sell your spec script or shooting script to a Director. Period! You take your spec script to your Agent/Manager who may present it to various Producers he/she knows. The indie filmmaker market is undergoing some changes but that's still how it work. You're free to argue with the system all you want, but you're rollin' a big stone uphill.

I don't write them as a rule, because I am novelistic enough as it is. But if you read Locke it is good on angles. I have directed my own stuff and I don't put angles in those scripts because I know them in my head (so that theory isn't right in my mind). It is your story and you should use every tool at your disposal to tell it to the best of your ability. Be aware that your skill may not let you use the tools correctly. Give me a scalpel does not make me a surgeon. So unless you know you are doing something 110% right, it may be safe to stay in the shallow end. If people are getting stuck in a bit of your script and describing a shot would fix that. There is a reason to use one.

Craig, the OP is talking about a “SPEC” script – one for sale in the open & competitive market. If he intends to produce/direct/act/cast and/or edit it himself – then he can write it however he wants. In commercial filmmaking; it takes a lot of people to make a movie and each & every one of them brings certain assets/knowledge to the process. Some folk take offense to being told how to do their jobs (creative people in particular.) So if your script includes shot/scene directing; I won't buy it because you make my job as a Producer harder when it comes to finding talented Directors, Actors and Editors. A writer can certainly “direct” by selecting certain words in the action lines or dialog and the occasional parenthetical (don't go crazy with parentheticals): But it's generally best to stick pretty close to the industry standards/norms in a “spec” script.

Never ever stick camera directions in a spec scripts. It's annoying and ammeterish. The moment I see one it goes immediately in the trash. And I read at least 3-5 selected by me scripts daily. And 99 percent real Indy producers ( with IMDb credits!) do not read specs unless there is already something going on that train. Package.

I am talking about those producers who produce within 1-2 years vs 10 and more years and very often never of conventional producing. I am talking about Producers who really produce and constantly deliver the product into the market place. We are the seccess and 1 percent of those who really do it. I am not talking about producers who just about talk and empty promises, not those producers who pay for the options and then drop the projects because they can't deliver, because can't budget it right and fail, not those who can't recoup the money for the investors. How those producers do it? They follow a formula, they are all loooking for the moving train - meaningful director attached, 39-40 of the budget in place or at least a bankable talent is attached then and only then they evaluate the package and yes, read the script. And if everything looks kosher they pull all the creative and the rest of the finances together and voila - we have movie.

It's very tricky. As a screenwriter and the way most of the writers want to conduct their business they have to wait 10 or more years on everage to be produced and for some it's okay. And they might get lucky or it will never happen and I explained already why. Secondly even if you will sign up a RIght director ( which I doubt) and will have a partial financing in place ( probably all that would Come from your personal sources or from your friends and family) and even if you will have a bankable talent ( a friend) the chances are that you are gonna fail if you will try to produce it yourself. What do you know about producing the movie? Did you ever produced a movie before? Do you know how to approach and pitch to right investors in order to close the financing? Do you know how to put a team of pros together and not get killed on their quotes and fees? Do you know how to attach a talent from the agencies and negotiate the right contract ? Do you know how to get a right distributor for your movie and ot to get killed recouping the money? And I can continue... producing the movie is not a walk in the park. It takes time and experience. By your response 'I can do it myself' means you know noting about this process. That's why you need to gather all the ingredients, the value that you will bring to a real producer who knows his shit, who ve been around the block and who fill finish the work that you started. Or just sit and wait for your break. Your choice.

Vitaly – over the past few decades I 've performed all/most (you left out teaching) of the activities you mention to various degrees. I can't speak for Dan G but I do know that he's been on set for years and he seems to know of what he speaks. There are others (in this thread) who have taken their training wheels off some time ago. The OP's question was answered early on. Move on.

First if all we are not talking about an experience to be on a set. We can talk about it too. We were talking about producing and what is the best and the fastest way for the screenwriter to get on screen. That's it. My last comment. I just tried to help interested and motivated filmmakers to get first hand experience from real people not from the teachers who never produced anything in their life and now teach others. Promise my last post! .

Because you have nothing Dan. You know it and I know it. When you get at least one project completed - a SAG feature under your belt ( not in the development like you declared a bunch of projects on IMDb) than you can open your mouth and tack about your accomplishments. Shame on you.

Personally I do not nominate the shots in a spec script but write the script in such as way that it pretty much tells the reader what they are seeing without explicitly saying it.

When you're directing the thing yourself.

Your belief, Don is not credible. And I am repeating that again for those who you BS. You are not a producer. I am. I have a SAG feature behind my belt. Produced by me, with SAG actors, playing at the festivals as we speak. That product is going to AFM in November and be sold. That's a success, you like it or not. And this is a fact. Fair ans square. You have nothing to back it up ( your claims as a producer!) except the projects in the development which anyone can post on IMDb. Those are just promisees and stay promises until you prove yourself that you are capable of producing. . And for those who read our exchanges on this site and try to understand who is who - producer is the one who really did it - found a writer, director, made the team, raise the money for the production and distribution, attached SAG talent through the agency, went into production, stay on schedual and on budget, paid everyone and on time, supervised the post and deliver the product into the market place where started to work with sales agents and distributors. If you Don at least once would went through this process you would have a right to claim that you are a producer. So far you are a promise, a poof, sorry for repeating myself. And again for those who really wants to make it and not spin their wheeels for years like some of "producers" and "teachers with shorts" here on this site - Only fully produced and delivered into the market FEATURE ( not a short!!!!!!!) with a real SAG actors can validate anyone as a PRODUCER. And now Don you can continue to BS the community with your buddies producers with shorts about producing. Love and learn, people! Live and learn.

Sad...very sad turn of a thread intended to help, guide, enlighten & educate others. I recall that there's a way to stop receiving posts from this thread – it's time to go find it. Doug has left the building. Over & out.

If you're writing a shooting script, you can add them. If you're writing the script as a writer that will be read by directors, producers, actors, etc. - you're telling a story, not telling a movie. Leave them out. I'm sure this is already been said, but this seems to be a long and cancerous thread and I don't really want to get involved in that. But here's your answer. Enjoy.

You don't have a name, Dan or Don. Truth hurts, isn't it?

The thread do not need such "educators with their false enlightments" like those guys are posting those empty promises. Go away! Remember their names and run away from them as far as you can! They are zero, were zero and always be zero in this business. The thread needs real people with proven experience. "I want the truth!" "You can't handle the truth!" . It suppose to be quiet Monday morning.

Hi Vitaly. Just a friendly reminder... While we welcome healthy debate about any given topic, we do discourage personal attacks. Stage 32 does have a Community Code of Conduct. I'm happy to post it for you, or it also can be found within the site's "Terms of Use." Anyway, should it become necessary, abusive comments may be deleted. But let's please not go there. Thanks.

You are right, Beth. It's got a little bit out of track. Just tired to see how public getting misleaded by some individuals with some false promises. It reminds me a little bit about our elections. Someone speaks the truth, but who? Complicated, isn't it? Anyway we all stay happy campers and live happily after. Out.

Vitaly, thanks, I appreciate that. But I have to disagree with you as the members you are addressing within this thread have been contributing to this site and to our community for years. They have not been "misleading"; they are sharing their personal and professional experience, and opinions, as are you. No one person is universally "right" here. There are no absolute rules. You can use camera directions in a spec script... However many would generally agree: it's best to keep it at an absolute minimum—perhaps if needed for specific clarity, for example. A spec screenplay should give visual sense to a story, of course you don't need technical jargon to do so. Those elements are developed and handled by others: directors, etc. Anyway, like most generalized discussions, blanket statements are often too reductive. It really depends on the context of the project, specific situations and/or creative intent.

And I want to crarify one more thing. One thing to talk about their personal experience and to be honest ... like I didn't produced anything yet, or I just produced a short and of course I didn't have experience to go through al the stages that the full feature going through but I think... and here goes their point of view... another thing that theirs are standards and requirements to be called a producer in the industry. I hope it was clear to understand the difference.

Completed and distributed feature considered to be a point by producers guild of America and that is how The guild would welcome it's members.

Thomas: Here you go sir. This is a great little article on the difference between spec and shooting scripts. http://scriptwrecked.com/2009/11/20/5-key-differences-between-spec-and-s...

Vitaly, with all due respect, it's fair to say that you truly don't know each and every person's screenwriting and producing experience. Plus this discussion is about screenwriting, more so than about producing, so I'm rather confused by your argument. I also do not think belittling people because they may or may not measure up to some sort of personalized standard of yours is relevant to this discussion. There are different points of view, and all views are valid. I have not produced a feature length film myself, so am I not worthy to comment or share my thoughts? According to your statements, probably not. Glancing through this thread and seeing all who have participated, many have a ton of working experience and knowledge. I've learned much from many folks here. But that's what makes Stage 32 so great: we have people from all different levels, from all different backgrounds engaging and networking with each other. We share information and personal experience; we encourage each other and offer support. Perhaps bear that in mind. ;) With that, I'll stop and let this thread return to topic. Best to you!

Beth nobody knows every single aspect of the producing. The moment you said that you are done as a producer and you better revert to your teaching career. I was talking about producing which we obviously started to discuss in this wrong thread. And I apologize for that. Yes , there are different points of view and there are producers who do the work and produce for real and there are those who only are talking about it. You are missing a point here. And yes, you can post your thoughts about any subject here, even if you might have a very little knowledge or experience and qualify for a membership here. You might even shine and be respected. This a free country with unlimited possibilities, isn't it? That's a beaty of this and some other filmmaking sites. Good luck to you too and long and prosperous career in the screenwriting. And I am not trying to be sarcastic here, am I?

Great share, Phillip. Thanks. :) I also recommend Scriptnotes and/or John August for various thoughts/information on these matters. Here's his library: http://johnaugust.com/library. In it he includes his very own projects at various stages, so you can see how a script changes and progresses through production. He also includes examples of treatments, outlines, shooting schedules, etc. Lots of great stuff. ;)

Vitaly, you do realize I'm a S32 moderator, right? Lol! I believe you did continue a conversation within the wrong thread. This one is about screenwriting. But, no worries, it happens. I only stepped in as a moderator, keeping the peace. I have not engaged in conversation with you prior to this. Oh, and I never said you were a teacher... or you should revert to being a teacher??? I'm not a teacher... but I am confident in my knowledge of screenwriting. Perhaps let's just move on and let the thread get back to its topic: camera directions in a spec screenplay. Again, best to you. ;)