Screenwriting : If you want to become a great writer... LISTEN... take the criticism.... LEARN! This industry takes no prisoners... and an MA in screenwriting isn't going to save you!! by Lara Moon

Contrarily, poor or uninformed criticism or imposing subjective opinion upon someone can do much damage. Writers should always be very particular about from whom they seek professional advice.

Very true Beth. Researching the professional you are asking for advice from is vital.

That is why I never ask for feedback and I never give it.

Gawd! There is more $$$$ teaching than writing for Entertainment. I don't know how Writers survive without teaching or writing books about writing.

Do a couple of years in "Hollywood", get fired from a gig, reinvent yourself as a a Consultant, start recruiting at airport hotel film conferences.

It's the rolodex that's important.

Had the same thing happen to me. Another Stage32'er asked me to read his script (for free) and give a critique. It was mostly "talking heads" and overly detailed descriptions, no movement within scenes at all. I told him and even re-wrote a page to show him as an example.

He ignored everything I said and had someone else do the same. He's posted and hit up a few more people looking for someone to blow smoke rather than try to learn the craft.

I'm no expert but I do have a couple of credentials under my belt. But it doesn't take an expert to tell if something is REALLY badly written.

Lara, a student I know was once provided a "what if" scenario by a well-respected instructor to consider. Chills literally went up my spine when it was mentioned and you could hear the resounding "oooos" and "ahhhs" throughout the class. It was probably one of the best suggestions I'd ever heard thrown out for free, frankly. But would you believe, the writer rose to his feet and fought tooth 'n' nail in a loud boorish voice for his previous prose. He really didn't even have a position as to why he was so adamant, or at least didn't express one. "My God, at least consider it, man," one of the classmates beseeched. Now, nothing wrong with sticking to your script; I admire and respect those who do; yet, it was the ferociousness by which he did so -- a mind solidified by reading one's own script over and over again, unable to hear it in a different way, perhaps? For a mind that is prepared to listen to "possibility" at least, might be still enough to perhaps ask the instructor a "why, rhyme, or reason" for the suggestion, or even say, "not for my script and here's why" or maybe a "thank you, I'll consider it", and then give it until lunchtime to allow the associated chemicals to seep past the scientifically known protein barrier in the brain commonly known outwardly in the world as the "wall of attachment." In this case scenario I didn't fault the writer's personality for this, but saw it as a mind that was not malleable. Luckily, we are not our minds.

Hoisting the Union Jack....GOD SAVE THE WRITER!!!

Bill

My eyebrows curl whenever an Overseas based Writer discuss Writing for the American Market. Rare you ever read about overseas Writers discuss their local industry. I don't watch Brit TV/Films. Well, I did see King Arthur with 3 other customers in a 600-seat theater.

Dan.... a little background for you. I have 21 years experience in the industry. 8 of those years working in LA, in script development and as a writer, so I am well versed on the American market, the British market and the European market. I am a produced screenwriter as well as a consultant to production companies in the US and the UK. I have more than enough experience in both countries. I hope that sheds some light on my comments for you.

Morty feels your pain

Lara - you're preaching the same sermon to the same congregation that I've been preaching to for years. I've given up preaching to upstart screenwriters who feel they should be immediately thrust to the top (from where I assume they'll work their way down). The basic craft of screenwriting is not difficult but the creative art of story is rare. I conclude that what they're teaching at the MA/MFA level is not taking root - sad but true. My forehead is black & blue from beating it against a wall - reluctantly, I give up.

Lara you are obviously qualified. However by now you must realize there are a lot of screenwriters that ask for feedback and except it graciously when they get it. However there are those out there that are just fishing for compliments and when they don't get them they turn against the person that gave them the feedback. I used to give feedback for free just to help aspiring screenwriters but I quit doing it because of those few bad apples. I don't know how anyone could deal with them. I know I couldn't do it even for money.

Lara

That's super. Which movies did you write and TV shows were you Staffed?

I know Brit TV Creator Debbie Moon and she didn't charge me for feedback.

Laura, only 21 years (8 in LA) - you're just a youngster. I started in LA 1967 and I've run out of fingers and toes to count on.

Guys, years in the Industry, noobie or veteran, Ph.d, MA/BA, MFA or MS., number movies written or distributed, number of tv shows staffed, etc. only means we should be capable and able, not Cain and Abel about bringing a solution to the problem, a breakdown to a script, or viable info to a group discussion such as this one.

Lara, I kindly suggest you add a profile picture. ;) Also in reading over your bio... sorry, but I struggle with the fact that you call yourself a 'script doctor.' While I am well aware of those writers out there who cannot handle criticism, nor can they look at their own work objectively, it often depends on how that feedback is delivered, whether it is constructive or not. And the tone of your post seems rather combative to me, a rant? It's one thing to offer feedback for free and another as a paid service. The many writers that have helped me with constructive feedback or that I have answered in kind have been very generous and open to suggestion. Anyway, I do wish you the best. And welcome to Stage 32. :)

To add... As an aspiring writer myself, operating independently with a low budget (like many here, Lol!), I've been extremely fortunate to have made great connections with other writers, industry folks, people with different perspectives, people with more experience than myself... and the key is building relationships based upon mutual respect, and keeping an open mind. Of course with that respect, I'm not going to damage those relationships by leaning on them or wasting someone's time, etc. Most creatives are very generous and enjoy talking about ideas—sure, pick my brain; how can I help? I also enjoy being of service, encouraging others and helping where I can. It takes a village to get those scripts done and written well, does it not? Lol! :)

It sounds like the person should have invested in a screenwriting software program before spending money on a script consultant. I agree with Beth but sometimes the only thing you can say positive after reading a real bad screenplay is that the screenwriter spelled their own name right.

Dan - ya wanna join me in chanting my mantra again? LEARN THE DA*M CRAFT! It just aint that hard.

Beth, what are you really trying to say. I read her profile, I read yours; on balance...? She has me beat on international experience - for sure. And I certainly respect her for that experience. Basically, I think she speaks the truth.

BETH, as I sifted through this post and the myriad of responses I really appreciate your words regarding it all. Tres helpful indeed.

DOUG, I'm with you, nothing beats actually learning the ropes of the ring you dance in.

Great stuff all.

That MA graduate is obviously green and most beginners are. If she persists she'll eventually develop a thicker skin but until then you ignore her and wait for the next one. I've seen it many times and it's actually a relief to get one who understands what the notes mean to them.

Doug, I'm commenting from the perspective of an aspiring writer... as someone whom script consultants may regard as a potential client. And... I am not a consultant, so why compare us? My point: I have a great network in which I built through connections for feedback, so I'm doing just fine on my own. ;) And to be honest (sorry again, no disrespect intended), but she called out one of her clients on a public forum and blamed the University for that writer's supposed issues. That raises a red flag for me. I prefer my privacy, and I prefer considering things/people individually and within specific context. And... I'm a bit protective of my fellow S32 writers. Lol! But to each their own. ;) Anyway, I will refrain from further comment.

I agree with Doug. Screenwriting isn't exactly rocket science.

I consult, I teach, I speak, I do what I have to to pay the bills (since it's impossible to sell a script) ... and what Lara is describing is unbelievably common and unbelievably predictable. MA/MFA programs prepare you for academia, though MFA is more directed toward writing than teaching. Still, NONE of them to my experience (and I've been around that block many times) do not teach story.. .they just teach writing. Story is always the poor second cousin. That people can't or don't want real criticism is only a function of their bad education at the graduate level. You can't blame them, really. You just have to tell them the truth, and walk away if they go off on you. After all, they wouldn't know a good note if it came up and introduced themselves. Another function of a poor graduate education. I blame the MA/MFA programs. I teach thru Stanford's program and that is one of the few I've found that gives a real-world foundation to writers. At least they have classes on story structure (a bigger issue than you would imagine).

Jeff. I used to read screenplays and try to help aspiring writers for free and it didn't bother me if their scripts were bad because those are the kind of people I was trying to help. What bothered me was when I would spend a lot of time on a screenplay and I wouldn't get a thank you and never here from them again.

it's just tacky for paid Consultants to slam and shame clients, MA student or hobbyists.

Dan, I re-read her post - I don't see where she's slamming/shaming any specific writer. I see her commenting on the sorry state of the screenwriting craft in general on her side of the pond - and she has the chops to know what she's talking about. From my perspective out here in the rollicking wild west - I see the same thing. She's just ranting about her frustrations - I periodically do the same thing.

Doug. I agree but if people didn't write bad screenplays Script Consultants wouldn't be in business so instead of being frustrated they should be thrilled there are so many crappy screenwriters out there.

One of my screenwriting instructors beat us over the head with script rulers, was unruly with notes, and bludgeoned us repeatedly with writer insults. At the time, I was unhappy with him. Yet, looking back, he toughened us beyond measure and gave us all rhino skin, which was his intent. I don't even flinch now when I receive a note in a room, regardless of how it's delivered. Let's say an exec gives you a horrible note. Keep in mind, execs also may be evaluating you on whether you can take direction, listen, or if you're going to be difficult to deal with at a later date. Some may simply want to come from a place of authority with respect to their colleagues in the room, impress their boss, or even gain a sense of internal ownership with your script and property, the latter of which you want. Learning the rules and then choosing whether to execute them (or your artistic license) is a pocketed asset worth having while navigating the Industry. Nothing is more embarrassing and reeks "not ready" and amateur than when an executive asks what your "premise or midpoint" is for your feature or whether you have a "runner" in your TV pilot, and you can't answer or speak intelligently about your own craft because you don't know what they mean. I once sat across from a major network executive who said, "You'd help us help you if you had an agent." I responded, "Option this property and I will have an agent tomorrow." The executive chuckled positively. My point is that I didn't learn this possible response from a screenplay book; I learned it from my instructor, who played the role of executive many times and had each of us pitch our show to him over and over. He threw at us every scenario possible, including horrible notes and insults, and thus made it "not personal" but more of the "Game" that it is.

Hi Lara, I'd like to add my experience because I had something similar happening to me recently...but in the other side. I paid for feedback notes from a very experienced consultant (won't name, but his CV really impressed me). His approach is line by line, so I could read his thoughts as my screenplay unfolded. It was my fourth script and I thought, this time I nailed it. Oh my, didn't see that coming. He tore it apart. Excluded the set up and few descriptions, his opinion was that basically it was to completely re-write. He basically said, it's rubbish. My heart broke. I was in a state of total shock. I am not a graduate from film or screenwriting school (couldn't even believe there is a MA in it!). And I am not exactly young and naive anymore, and yet I felt so emotional about the rejection that I couldn't write for a month. I wasn't even angry at him: I was numb. What I then processed, after weeks of thinking about it, is that learning the craft is not the hard thing about writing: it's staying objective, accepting that your idea might not be as good as you thought that is hard. Some people are genius, everything is just so simple and effortless, and their first script is produced and wins all the awards in the Universe. Some others take a long time to process information and need to grow, not just from a craft point of view, but also as human beings. So bottom line is, your notes might have been good but he is too "fresh" to be objective and he prefers to blame you rather than accepting the truth, that his work is not as good as he thought. And maybe he wasn't ready for the direct approach you have, but thought he was. By the way, I ended up getting a second opinion: still sucked, but the person spoke a language that I could understand better and that made me see it clearly. Cheer up, at least you got paid! :)

doug, what chops are you talking about? Credits? I don't know this Consultant or her movies/books/agency rep/script rates but my chops are Budd Schulberg, Richard Price, Spike Lee- dudes with Oscars, Emmys, Best Selling books, trail-blazers, 20 to 50++-year career in Entertainment. They talk, I listen. That is my standard. That's Greatness.

Anyways, the post reads like a rant. If you don't like the gig, don't be a Consultant at whatever job field- scripts, fixing cars, making coffee. There will always be unsatisfied customers. Be the Professional that you're supposed to be and suck it up. Cash the check and move on. No need to blast a MA student on a public writing forum. That's a shitty way to promote and fish for future clients.

Identity Vision and Mastery are the keys to being a leading writer in your life. Most of the stuff I learned is from the school of hard knocks. We all have to hone our skils everyday or they go away. Hope you are all great!

Dan M. I agree with you but someone doesn't have to be a big time screenwriter with a lot of credits to help a newer screenwriter. However instead of complaining when her client wasn't happy she should have just returned the money because now there is a good chance the screenwriter is out there bad mouthing her.

I sided with the writer.... THE MOMENT...... I read your HEADLINE!!!

I always side with the writers no matter what.

Cole slaw seems like a good side.

I dont know Lara, but much like Jeff Lyons, as a very busy consultant myself, I can understand where shes coming from. People have to be ready for the notes process. As someone known for being very direct and honest with his notes (the name No BullScript should be an indicator), the writers who come to me are looking for that level of critique and almost always appreciate it. but not all are ready for it. But if youre not, then you're also not ready to make this a career yet. And while i dont comment on specific clients, i dont think Lara did either. it was a general comment with some needed context. And dont mind Beth and Dan Maxx, theyre not fans of most consultants.

Danny. I am sure you are good at what you do, but just because someone doesn't want to use a script consultant doesn't mean they aren't ready to make this a career.

I am not against Consultants of any job field. I'm just against whining about customer service.

Unashamedly, I love someone telling me they dislike my script, it gives me a reason to pour a whiskey at 10am. That aside, as long as the criticism is constructive, which it sounds like it was, then the only issue is that screenwriter not getting their money's worth from their therapist.

Danny, actually that's not true. I am not against consultants, or consulting. I've been very fortunate to have received consulting from various working professionals—my mentor being a former V.P. of Development at United Artists. This post reads like a rant. She is also offering a paid service. I am looking at this post individually and independently. And dealing with difficult clients is part of her job, is it not? As a potential client myself... her tone is not exactly "approachable." Lol! Plus there are other ways to be consulted without having to pay for it. Just saying. ;)

Constructive criticism is often better received. And "constructive" does not mean coddling. Lol! ;)

One of my best buddies works at Starbucks, He makes coffee every day and every day, somebody rejects his coffee and asks for a redo. he sucks it up, smiles, and redos; he doesn't go on coffee forums and rant on customers, he's got thick skin for a Barista; he's a Pro.

I agree with Owen.....and it's a matter of opinion as to how people interpret someone's statements. Some people need a bit of coddling, and some people like the Iron Hammer Approach. There was a similar post last year from a script consultant from Spain, and the reactions were mixed to her tone as well. Sometimes, the actual content of the message gets lost in the form and tone, since some people process the form and tone in a certain way, and let that interfere with the actual message.

For them, "it's not what you say, but the way you say it" holds very true.

I'm not a coddling type. I like analysis bluntly. I'd rather get my analysis in a BANG-BANG-BANG way. But as a business consultant whose clients range from small contractors to medium-size professional service corporations, and who are all across America, I talk to people in the ways that I perceive relates to them the best. There isn't a one-size-fits-all strategy in my consultative conversations, and especially since my clients range from polite and sensitive, slow-drawl types to fast-talking blunt types, and everywhere in between. This process is partly based on the Communication Accommodation Theory (CAT), and partly based on my own common sense.

That's a good lesson for writers, too, when developing characters.....make sure their psychological, cognitive and social identity aspects realistically and consistently match who they are, as represented by you, the writer.

Good Luck and Happy Writing, Everybody!

Well what an interesting and lively response to my comment. I've been unable to respond sooner owing to travelling to China to write a British/China co-production of a beautiful dragon project.

Sat in my hotel room I'm digesting all the comments.

Firstly... I can take the critisum...(note the irony).... when I wrote my comment I must admit their was more a mild huff of frustration rather than smoke blowing out my ears.... but I do apologise if it was read that way.

I did not blame or shame anyone. And I never would. My comment never named any individual. A writer who graduated from an MA class is pretty vague if you ask me. And I'll bet that this individual has never even heard of Stage 32.

What else was there...oh yes.... I loved this one. I wouldn't make money if bad writer's didnt send me scripts. I make my living as a writer firstly and as a Consultant second. As a Consultant I mainly work with extremely talented writers and production companies to bring their scripts from good to exceptional. Challenging them to explore every avenue to create fantastic scripts. All professional writer's work with other's developing their scripts. I opened my consultancy to novice writers after delivering many lectures at Universities and seeing the passion they have but lack of knowledge or skills to break the cement walls in this industry. I would very happily survive making my living as a writer and consultant if no bad writer ever sent me a script again.... Sorry to shatter that myth!

My point was more a withering frustration with the level of teaching at MA courses. Not only in basics (I mean.... seriously....how hard is it to write in one font... Courier people....it ain't rocket science)... and this writer's insistence that her tutors thought her work was excellent so she just needed me to write an introduction letter to an agent for her!!!!

I was clear I would not do this.... but what I did do was give her a wealth of advice in a long email on how she could go about helping herself, tips, ideas, etc. But most important was that her script was at a level it could compete in the market. I referred her to my website. I told her to read the recommendations from other writer's I have worked with. I told her I don't pull any punches.

I'm not going to get into the whole 'rant' again about how deplorable it was. And many of you are right it was by no means the first (and I'm sure that last) bad script I will read. I gave clear comments, avenues to explore, rewrote several pages to show how fluid story telling works. But did I pull any punches... no.... I never do.... but I did give guidance.

My post was more about the aggressive and agreggious attitude of someone coming out of a course I would hope would have taught her more in terms of core basic principles, professionalism and reality. I am a writer first and foremost. I respect my profession. Blind belief in yourself is great...but ain't worth shit if you don't have a bloody clue what you're doing.... oh dear.... I might be sliding into rant territory.... rain it in girl....

Any hoot... I sincerely appreciate all of you taking the time to comment and I do mean all of you. It's still your time and that's worth something. Happy writing!

I will finally add....I find the idea that all "aspiring" writers must be defended as some righteous cause rather vacuous. I'm a woman, I don't believe all women are right. I'm a mother, I don't believe all mothers are right. I base my responses to opinions on knowledge, experience and common sense not blind defensiveness.

I would defend the writer in a court of Law. lol

I think the only reason schools are around like that is to teach you basics. The real lesson lie in the real world. When you are out there writing and being told the truth about your writing. Some I don't think teach how to prepare yourself for that NO because something is wrong. My opinion here since I never got the fancy education and have learned more in the world than in a classroom.

Lara. I understand your frustration but you have to remember a first time screenwriter can take things personally and they often don't know better. Obviously you were upset when you wrote your original post. If you are anything like me you would wait until you cooled off. I was pissed off at a producer once and wrote an email to my agent calling the producer I was working with an asshole and a few other choice words and I sent it to the producer by accident. After that I learned not to email of post something when I am mad. Anyway it is good to have you here!!!