Screenwriting : How Professional Writers Outline by Geoff Hall

writer-directors can wing it, even use "We see." :)

I dont think Ardnt is a director (yet); his track record is all franchise assignments (Toy Story, Star Wars trilogy); guessing bosses need to approve every scene.

An animator-friend worked on Avatar sequels for two years. Her vfx team had no script. Just pre-vis ideas.

Thanks for the link, Geoff Hall. It's cool to see the different ways professional writers outline. I outline everything from theme to scenes to a character's hobbies and habits.

That must be something to write from pre-vis ideas, Dan MaxXx.

Maurice Vaughan it's Avatar. I remember my friend saying they spent 6 months creating underwater in New Zealand. Pre Vis first and write avatar 2, 3, 4 based on what vfx can do. Guessing.

You do it your way & I'll do it mine. One thing is sure - you'll need an outline; just to keep you out of the weeds. I like to start with a legal pad on which I explore various issues/ideas/concepts and such with circles and arrows all over the place. Then I write a hot opening scene and what seems to be a good ending. Then I begin outlining how I think I'll get from the opening to the end. I cast my characters and explore various sub plots and create a character map. Then I start tinkering with the line outline some more. The last thing I write is a scene by scene block outline. Only then do I begin to write the script, keeping in mind that everything can morph along the way. By then, I have a first draft - and then the serious writing (rewriting) begins. That's just my way.

Sounds expensive, Dan MaxXx, but like you said, it's "Avatar."

Just like everyone learns and takes in information differently, everybody writes differently. Some people love to write with a partner, some can only write alone. I think it's great in the beginning to try a few different processes when writing a script so that you understand the pros and cons, and how your best shines through.

Dan MaxXx who is the arbiter of people not being allowed to do what they want? Directors aren’t answerable to producers and studios? Producers are not answerable to studios or financiers? I would say “you can do anything if you do it well”. Perhaps he does what he does, because he does it at a world standard.

I dont know Craig D Griffiths You keep saying you don't care or want to work in Hollywood, but you sure do worry a lot

There are Producers, Directors, Studio and Financiers outside of California. I was asking about the myth that a Writer/Director is like an insane dictator (no one dares question them).

I agree with the consensus.

Maurice Vaughan for me it depends on the project. If I’m writing in a genre that’s new to me, I do a lot of research and world building. I’ll go however into FD and write the initial scenes that sparked the idea.

For others, they may have so much energy that I’m carried through to the end - with many alterations as I go, but like Doug says, that’s the first draft and from there, the serious work starts.

I outline like an amateur...for that's what I am...

I do a lot of research for Sci-Fi, Fantasy, and History scripts, Geoff Hall. Sometimes Action and Crime scripts. I called the FBI once to get answers to some questions.

Maurice Vaughan I never thought of actually calling the FBI, mind you that would be one expensive call across the Pond! For Seeing Rachel I visited the Flowers By Irene website and downloaded a number of reports by the Behavioural Analysis Unit on serial offenders, as well as reading books on the sex trafficking industry and serial sexual offenders. Exceedingly dark material!

Yeah, Geoff Hall. Turns out there's a person at the FBI who handles questions about the FBI in movies and shows. I had questions about the Hostage Rescue Team.

Those are smart ideas for research. Yeah, I can imagine it's really dark material. If I had to research those topics, I probably could only do a little at a time.

Maurice Vaughan oh wow, that’s great to know. Thank you. I will bear that in mind for future stories. That’s a great resource.

At one point my wife and I were sat in bed reading. She was probably engrossed in a Kate Atkinson book and I was reading, “The Johns: sex for sale and the Men Who Buy it” by Victor Malarek. She objected to me reading it. Thought it was creepy. It turns out she was right! It was a real skin crawler!

And yes, you do have to pace yourself, otherwise you can get sucked into the wormhole of despair. You have to know what you’re reading it for, and for me that was to do with developing the character of the main antagonist. It seemed/still seems to me that there’s a lot of emphasis on the protagonist’s journey, but not so much the antagonist’s journey.

In Seeing Rachel, this character doesn’t appear till page 35, and then the neatly crafted world of the procedural drama falls apart. Without that background, the antagonist would probably have been a superficial, sensationalist element, and I had no desire for that to happen.

You're welcome, Geoff Hall.

Thanks for the heads up about “The Johns" book. It's now on my "Do Not Read" list.

"It seemed/still seems to me that there’s a lot of emphasis on the protagonist’s journey, but not so much the antagonist’s journey." I try to put as much emphasis on the antagonist as the protagonist. I do a full life/backstory/daily routine breakdown of the antagonist. I don't want a script to be average or sub-par because the antagonist was underdeveloped (or any major character).

Maurice Vaughan hahaha! I could give you a few more, if you wish.

Yes, indeed. The antagonist’s journey is revealed in SR, with scenes that may disturb some viewers!

Are you planning to tone down the scenes, Geoff Hall, or do you plan to keep them as they are? If you tone down the scenes, you might lose some of the impact of the story, but if you don't tone down the scenes, some people might avoid the movie (or not recommend the movie to others), which could impact sales and views.

Maurice Vaughan that would be a catch 22 situation, but there are no gratuitous scenes in the script, it’s all written to play on the mind, to tell the (missing) story in the imagination of the audience. But not every film is for everyone.

Take Jonathan Demme’s ‘Silence of the Lambs’. I think it’s a masterpiece, but my wife wouldn’t watch it. And yes there are very violent scenes in that, but where does the film end and the story begin for the audience?

I decided with SR being about a missing school girl, traded by her father to pay off his gambling debts, that the film had to be careful that it didn’t exploit the actress playing Rachel.

In the planning stage I gave titles to the scene, to help me develop the warp and weft of the narrative weave. There was a scene called Dinner for Two, in which the predator has a meal with Rachel. There is no predatory ‘action’ per se, just dialogue. The innocence of the young girl’s mind doesn’t get where this is leading, but the adult audience does. The first Producer we had on board, when meeting to go through the script, said she couldn’t read it again because it was so harrowing. That to me was exactly the response that meant to me I had got his scene right.

I think we have to tell the story that is yearning to get out of us, and not worry about box office or trying to please everyone, because that’s a fools errand and would erase the passion the writer had for their story to become our story.

I’m loving this discussion, Maurice.

Geoff Hall my process is very simple, I just write what I want to write about. I have stories I want to tell and issues I want to tackle in my projects and that's what I do. I personally don't like to outline as for me the story changes constantly. I do a lot of mental outlining though, trying to figure out how the story is going to progress but that happens as I am working on the project. That's personally what works for me and perhaps is different to the norm haha.

Marvin Younathin Hi Marvin, if it works for you, keep doing it. And the truth about 'the norm' is that there is no norm!

Stories and Issues. So, are we talking about social content here? What issues float your boat?

Geoff Hall each project takes on a different approach when it comes to my outline, but I've noticed that I have a master document where every thought process for the WIP goes in there, and then I begin to weed out the unnecessaries, and keep the good stuff. From there, the outline takes a shape and I see the story. For me, it's like shaping clay, but I know there MUST be a better way. haha

James sorry tagging you isn't working. A better way? It seems like you've found a way that works for you. Keep going!

My initial ideas go down in a notebook. When I start writing I go there for scene and dialogue ideas. Some don't make it into the screenplay, even though I like the original energy that gave to my writing process. They are still in there waiting for an outlet. My most recent mythological project had me writing all sorts of ideas, some of which were obviously not for this film, but then came the idea to make it into a trilogy, so I guess I'll have my work cut out for me after I've completed the first screenplay!

You aint hirable if you cannot outline.

No such thing as winging story for television, less likely newbie will be hired by a legit studio/prod company. Maybe you can wing it for indie movies if you're financing and make it yourself.

There are many ways to do so- everyone has their thing. I use story planner and / or dramatica pro… I prefer story planner. Character spinner is also great for character arcs and psych profiles

Everyone needs to write in whatever manner works best for them. If it helps anyone 2 other great things to check out is Prewrite and Hart Chart. Happy writing!

Oh, Save The Cat has a tremendous program/App - exceptional.- not just workbooks and best sheets.!

Dan - it's not so much can/cannot outline as it is will/will not - it's more of an attitude issue.

Dan MaxXx but the evidence doesn’t support that. The interviewees are a mixed bag of outliners/non-outliners and all are employable…

Geoff Hall ask the same interviewers the same question at the beginning of their careers, not when they're all established.

I agree with you, Geoff Hall. "I think we have to tell the story that is yearning to get out of us, and not worry about box office or trying to please everyone." I do think it's important to keep market, budget, etc. in mind when writing a script, but worrying about B.O. and trying to please everyone can ruin a writer's story.

"...but there are no gratuitous scenes in the script, it’s all written to play on the mind, to tell the (missing) story in the imagination of the audience." That's great because you can get across what you want to without turning off viewers AND you keep the budget lower (hinting at the scenes through dialogue instead of showing the scenes). I haven't come across the situation that you're dealing with in SR, but now I have a post to come back to if I do.

Dan MaxXx haha. I think that’s trying to slew the evidence to make your case. For one, Greta Gerwig has an established practice that has served her well.

Maurice Vaughan cool. I’m looking forward to our call tomorrow night. Will you send me an email with a link?

Looking forward to our call also, Geoff Hall. Yes, I'll email you the link.

Maurice Vaughan thank you, Maurice.

Dan Guardino (sorry, tagging isn’t working) I’m not sure how Save the Cat works. Does it impose its own sense of structure on the script and tell you when and where the beats need to be?

I've got a tight process that I detail here.

The nature of my part of the industry (low budget indied) is that we run and gun. It's not unusual for me to have to turn around a screenplay very quickly because a funding opportunity has suddenly arisen. The movie I have coming out next year was written in around ten days and I consider that a steady pace.

I see it like sketching/painting. I get the form right before I go in and add the detail. This way I'm not constantly worrying if I'm going in the wrong direction. It allows me indulge when I should be indulging.

From what I've seen, good writers with track records are permitted to follow the process that works for them. Some demand six months and a lot of navel gazing to get things right. Some have to churn through multiple drafts in a process of trial and error. Smart producers trade on results and know how to get them from people.

CJ I love this. “I see it like sketching/painting. I get the form right before I go in and add the detail.”

Getting the form right. Yes, I suppose you know the genre well and understand the audience’s expectations. With a turn-round of 10 days, I guess you can’t be hypercritical and allow your own worse demon to second-guess, nor to overthink your story? Thanks for taking the time to respond to my question. It is much appreciated.

You're welcome, Geoff Hall. I just emailed you the Zoom link.

Geoff Hall "I’m not sure how Save the Cat works. Does it impose its own sense of structure on the script and tell you when and where the beats need to be?"

Yes. I've used the Save the Cat beats, and I still use some of them, but I'm not bound by beats when writing scripts.

Thanks Maurice Vaughan and Dan I will have to check it out.

Maurice Vaughan thank you Maurice. See you at 10pm UK time.

Ok, Geoff Hall. See you then. I'll actually probably see you around Stage 32 before then. Haha