Screenwriting : Why the large proportion of formatting questions? by Regina Lee

I thought this forum's main reason was to ask format questions. I don't think i've ever had good advice in regards to story any where so I don't bother asking. I mostly only post here to ask about formatting issues. It doesn't mean people are not concentrating on story, but honestly it's impossible to get good story advice most of the time.

Hi Cherie, I appreciated reading your perspective. Thank you for taking the time to respond to me. I feel it's a shame that people believe the well is dry for responses to story questions. If you feel that way, I certainly agree that you wouldn't want to waste your time posting story topics in vain!

Well I have been thinking of posting a story question, but I'm not confident it will yield anything helpful, but I guess it's like the lottery. You gotta be in it to win it. We'll see.

Regina, When I first started out, I was petrified over formatting issues. Story was important, I knew that, but I was led to believe that formatting was paramount and if you couldn't demonstrate your knowledge of correct formatting, your script would be dumped by any prospective readers before they even got to see any part of your story. Whether that was justified or not or just a phase in the industry that no longer exists, I don't know but I do know that most people felt the same way as me at that time. I can only assume that novices feel the same way now so I think that's why there are so many formatting questions whereas the more experienced writers no longer ask formatting questions because, a) we know how to format, and b) we know it's important but, more importantly, we also know that we don't need to follow such stringent rules. General format is important to follow but it's really not that important to cross certain T's and dot all the I's and in a way, I guess some nuances for format could even form a part of a writer's voice. Your question about so many formatting questions being raised? I dare say they're all from newer members, those who still need to learn what we already know and that is that story is more important than strict formatting guidelines but hey, it's only by asking that they will learn and move into the same area that the more experienced writers inhabit. People helped me when I started out and I am more than happy to put what I know back into the system to help others. I think the more decent writers are the ones that are willing to help others.

This reminds me of writing assignments in university. Too many of the tutors were concerned with the assignments format over what was actually written. I always lent more towards focusing on the content first and foremost and gave the format some consideration later... usually much later.

Hi, Regina - It's funny you mention this. I literally just had a conversation with my development person where she told me that someone had sent in material that was such a mess in terms of format that she couldn't even get through 20 pages due to frustration. While I agree with you that writers ought to focus on their story first, I personally find that there's little excuse for not being able to properly lay out a screenplay... As you well know, Final Draft will more or less handle the formatting for you (and while a bit pricey, should be, in my opinion, considered part of the cost of living the life one intends to live as a screenwriter). As producers or writers or filmmakers, we're all different. What we look for, what we're chasing... what we expect. For me? I can't stand reading a piece of material that is improperly formatted or riddled with spelling errors. Anyone can download last years Oscar nominated screenplays for free and see how your material is supposed to look to say nothing of the way the plot functions, where turning points land and how characters arc... everyone has spell-check, and if a writer can't afford FD, there's always Celtx... What I would say to Cherie is that, while producers like Regina and I have plenty to keep us busy, we drop into the lounge on Stage32 pretty frequently, and if we see a question we're able to help out with - whether story related or otherwise - we will... so post your story questions here, too, guys. It's a pretty strong community and worth giving it a shot. You may get an answer that helps you break through the wall.

Regina, as you know I rant about the amature writer obsession with the superficial a lot. The fact is concerning ourselves with formatting is easy and developing good storytelling skills is hard. Plus there's so much seemingly expert advice out there which dwells on formatting and perpetuates the fear that making a minor presentation fopar on page one of a script is going to see it thrown in the trash by a studio reader. Compounding all this is a common marketing strategy that begins and ends in submitting to screenwriting competitions as if they are coursework examination. I've seen the same obsession in many other walks of life; amatueur marketing consultants who spend their time tweaking logos rather than putting together an effective strategy, amatueur photographers who search out high iso noise rather than seek good composition, amatueur web designers who run code through validators over and over rather than spend a minute thinking about converting visitors, print designers who can spend days flicking through pantone swatches but don't know what a baseline grid is. It's too easy to muse over formatting and believe it's progress, or criticise formatting and mistake it for constructive feedback. We need a huge cultural shift in screenwriting that puts formatting debates to bed and encourages dialogue about true craft. However that's swimming against a strong tide as many of us have far more to say about the former than the latter. A crying shame considering formatting can be learned in an afternoon and craft may take years or even decades.

It's easy enough to learn the basics of formatting, but I think most questions come from issues that aren't seen in many screenplays. I've read a few screenplays, but it doesn't mean they have covered an issue I might have now and it doesn't mean I'd remember every little format issue either. I don't think it's fair to say people who ask formatting questions haven't done their research. They're asking questions on a forum. Isn't that research? Not every script is going to offer the answers you need.

That's a good point, Cherie. There are a lot of quirky issues out there, such as the one you posted recently yourself. However, I don't think there is really a right or wrong answer to a lot of those questions - a lot of the time we just want validation what we're doing is okay, and really we should have faith in our own gut feeling about our writing. But sadly a lot of the advice out there, especially that touted as rules, slowly eats away at our confidence and has us questioning our ability to form a reasonable workaround to the issues we face. Therefore we end up in this position where we're happy with what we've done, but we need to know a professional has done it prior before we can really move forward without it bugging us. But even then, there's always someone out there quick to claim that it's somehow one rule for pros and another for amateurs.

I agree that it's important to focus on story, however if you don't get the technical stuff down, that great story isn't likely to be read

Everything you do in your screenplay is important.

Format is something you can fix after you get the script written. Write the story and just let the software handle it. You'll be 95% of the way there. (I prefer Final Draft but the freebie demo copy of Fade In will handle it as well.) But get the story down first. Then, when you're happy with it, go back and do a rewrite pass specifically for format. Park a copy of the Hollywood Standard by your keyboard and treat it as a proofreading pass that focuses on formatting.

Let's use a writing analogy: Haiku is poem of seventeen syllables, in three lines of five, seven, and five which doesn’t rhyme. If it doesn’t follow these rules it may be a great poem, but it isn’t haiku. Screenplay format is what identifies the writing as a screenplay. A writer may have a great story but if it isn't in screenplay format it is not a screenplay. Just because many people ask about format does not suggest they are not focusing on characters and story. I always assume they ARE focusing on story and putting their greatest efforts there. Then they come here to ask about presenting that story in the proper format. The story is very personal to writers. I suspect that few writers what help with their story because that is something that is coming from deep inside them. But they ask for format help. I think asking is a wonderful thing, not something worry about.

I believe all aspects of screenwriting are important, from the larger all-encompassing considerations about story and theme to the superficial considerations of formatting — the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. It all works together as one. Sure, newer writers tend to focus on surface issues first, but after some time, studying and delving much deeper into the mechanics of story structure, etc, a shift in one's creative thinking occurs. From what I've seen as a moderator, most advice given here is quite generous, helpful and encouraging. It certainly has helped me! And with forums, formatting questions are often easier to inquire about and discuss. Some writers don't wish to share too much about their projects for fear of exposing their ideas. Plus in an online setting, it's sometimes tricky to advise someone about a structure issue when only given a snippet of the story without reading the script in its entirety, and without knowing the creative intent nor full context. Sometimes direct feedback is best given in a more private environment. Many writers feel that way. A lot of us share our scripts through email and help each other with story and structure issues behind the scenes. Perhaps that's why we see fewer structure and story questions within this forum. :)

I love using Final Draft and once in a blue moon, Movie Magic Screenwriter. So far there's been no issues when I submit my scripts about format problems. Now about the story, grammar and other stuff, that's another topic for discussion.

I'm sorry but if most of us amateur screenwriters genuinely cared about the craft of screenwriting as much as we cared about how to make a screenplay look pretty and how to sell it, screenwriting forums would read entirely differently. Regina's point is being somewhat missed. We aren't keeping those deeper thoughts to ourselves, most of us are just rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Sorry, but it's blatantly true.

The large amount of questions about formatting that appear here are probably because the large amount of screenwriters who post are novices/beginners. It probably reflects the number of people who are attempting their first pursuits at screenwriting during any given month, and who are also new to Stage32. Win-win, right? And even if those questions have appeared regularly in the past - just like "Favorite Screenwriting Software" and "Favorite Screenwriting Books" questions appear regularly from people who are new to screenwriting and to Stage32. At least there is new activity in the forums here, and good luck to all of you. I think the more advanced questions/insights about screenwriting aren't started that often, or, for the ones that are started, usually don't get too many replies here because they are time-consuming to formulate, read, and to write a reply. It would be nice if there were more forum topics about screenwriting techniques, theories and history started by other people - but I can also understand the time constraints that many people have. At least some people post links to insightful articles about screenwriting from other sources.

Thank you all for taking the time to think about this topic and write to me/us. I know that I grow as a more effective communicator when I better understand the perspective of the person on the other side of the conversation. I appreciate your sharing your POV with me and allowing me to learn what you're thinking.

I admit that I'm combining a few different topics in this reply. This comment is not strictly about formatting. It's also a comment about story, a writer's brand/voice, and a writer's location - all popular topics in the Lounge. It's been a decade, so please pardon me if I get some details wrong; I'm not trying to pull a fast one. In 2006 (?), the spec script (500) DAYS OF SUMMER by Neustadter & Weber went out to studios and producers from CAA. These writers were "new" and largely unknown. I think they might have sold one script before 500 DAYS went out. They had written a nonlinear, anti-rom com spec script, AND it contained musical scenes! What is this new species?! It's awesome! How can I get more of this drug?! As far as I know, every exec who read it loved it and felt blessed to read a great new voice with excellent craft and a different yet accessible take on the genre. All of a sudden, Neustadter & Weber were getting meeting requests from every studio and producer. Neustadter lived in LA, but Weber lived in NY, so he'd call in for the meetings. (Weber called into the general meeting that my company had with them. They were so booked for meetings that we couldn't get on their calendar at first, but one of them had worked at the same company where my colleague had interned, so she reached out to him personally to get them in the door.) Every exec wanted the writing team to work with them on new projects or rewrites. In only one script (albeit an extraordinary script), they had established their credibility, their voice, and their brand. If you look at their body of work, it's clear that they're writing in a certain space (or defining their expertise/brand as the go-to guys in a certain space). They did something different, yet accessible. And everyone who read them loved them for it. If you look at that script, the format is unique and effective, as is the story. If the script works, it can be different - what I'll call "different, yet accessible." But not every script should be "different." Every project should be crafted to work on its own terms. And as I've said before, if you're totally indie/DIY, do what works for your team. You don't have to conform to Hollywood rules (or as William Martell says, "there are no rules, only tools"). But be sure you're using enough "proper" formatting that your crew is able to properly budget and schedule the script. Most ADs will feel most comfortable scheduling a script in standard format.

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I care very much about the craft of screenwriting as many do here. Personally, I could care less about making a script "pretty." I only care about crafting a story and doing it well and doing it to the best of my ability. Plus, as Cheri pointed out, some formatting questions are about clarity: "How do I get this moment or scene on the page in a manner that reads well?" And as Bill pointed out, posting advanced questions about story and structure and/or replying/responding to those questions does require a lot of time. And many here do donate a lot of personal time and energy to contribute to the greater good of the community and to the craft. Honestly, part of the answer to Regina's question is a practical one—with larger, in-depth discussions more time and further consideration is required. Now, if we would like to see change in the forum, then we need to be the change we would like to see! Please do post advanced questions. :)

Thanks for further adding about story/craft and voice, Regina. That's the seemingly elusive thing the raises the bar, makes a work rise above the rest. I just love reading about writers who "broke the mold," so to speak. :)

Thread topics about "voice" are rare in the forum. How to develop or nurture your own, etc. Hmmm..

Story is important but a spec screenplay is the screenwriter’s calling card so it's not just about the story. You want to use it to show people in the business that you know the business and how to write for it.

One more reminder of my new fave quote from William Martell: "There are no rules, only tools."

What is your voice as a writer? Hugh Howey says: "it's how you write when you aren't aware that you're writing. Everything else you do is mimicry. Self -awareness is the enemy of voice. When find your voice, your fingers won't be able to keep up with your writing. You won't stumble, you won't fall. You won't sit there wondering what the next best word is. End quote. I know, by experience, this takes time, but once you find it, it's a Godsend, because you can now "tell the story in your mind without getting in your own way." I'm probably the only one here, other than RB who has said it who never writes an outline and it all, I believe, has to do with finding your VOICE. Just to back to what Beth said that there are no threads about voice. I wanted to bring my take on this tool to use Martell's word, as I strongly believe in the voice of a writer.

Regina - I would disagree with William Martell's quote "there are no rules, only tools." Rules like having a premise, a compelling story and plot, conflict, complex characters, great dialogue, a climax and a resolution - among many others - are pretty much set in stone. Without those rules firmly in place, great stories would be haphazard and as hard to come by as great presidential candidates.

I love that quote but most the "tools" I know are the ones that are writing the screenplays.

Dan, LOL. Bill, I can't argue with that! Both responses - totally "meta." :-)

Regina - thanks. I wasn't trying to be argumentative, flippant or a contrarian. I know the phrase might have a good intention behind it - like it might have been used in that context as a response in a forum topic like "Do My Beats Always Have to Be on the Pages that Save the Cat Says They Should?" or something like that. And I'm not trying to pick an argument with a guy who has sold more scripts than there are days in the month like Martell has, or with a studio insider like yourself. When it comes to great storytelling, as we all know, some rules/elements/characteristics/practices/beliefs/essentials are pretty much etched in stone.

Bill, I genuinely thought your post was un-disputable and valuable! (Obviously, experimental films have no rules, but typically, yeah, you're right! Someone could make an experimental film with a black screen, no characters, no story to speak of, and just sound effects, and it would be valid on its own terms.)

Again, they may not be "rules," per se, but rather guidelines. And writers will always have questions about how to use those tools. Lol!

fyi Neustadter was not yet dating his wife at the time that the 500 DAYS spec went out. She is now a TV exec at Fox on the network side (not studio side). Her shows are live action, but it's possible that she could be assigned an animated show.

I think it's because there are a lot of newbies here. Comes with the territory.

I don't mind the formatting questions because it reminds me all the things I have forgotten over the years.

Agreed, Dan

We've all asked format questions. In the nicest possible way, format questions make me smile. They are story ambition, hope, and enthusiasm temporarily thwarted by a minor piece of technical info.

Celt-X free and good.

Software programs are good but people still need to know the rules in order to use the software.