Screenwriting : Outline vs 1st draft vs rewrites -- what do you love, what do you hate? by Travis Seppala

I never outline. I really just think of what the first and last scenes would be and start writing.

I did an outline for the first novel I wrote. When I finished it I went back and was surprised at how other than the character names the final version was completely different. I felt it was much better so the outline process kind of ended there.

I always go straight to Fade in. I tried outlining but its not for me. I find it boring.

I love rewrites. Mainly because I love to see the finish story. I just love storytelling.

I love outlining, writing the first draft (I rewrite as I go, so my first draft isn't a true first draft), and rewriting after the first draft is done, Travis Seppala. The only thing I don't like is checking for typos. I can't stand typos, so I definitely check for them in a script, but it's sooo boring. Haha

You think you have issues.

I worked on a screenplay for someone, where we went through a 3 hr conference call verbally outlining the story, I did a 3 page outline of what we discussed. Great.

I wrote a first draft, he liked it but made several major changed. Fine.

I submitted a second draft, he made more changes that I had to fit into the story. Ok.

Third draft, he loved it but added a bunch of ideas that had nothing to do with the original story, plus he writes in long winded novel prose, not to-the-point screenplay format.

Fourth draft, he made several more major changes, which I talked him out of some because they took away from the story's main focus and added a lot of pages.

Fifth draft, he didn't like it because I didn't include every single change and shortened the ones I could, which I couldn't add much detail because we were already at 120 pages.

I suggested redoing the outline then correcting all issues because the current draft looked nothing like the original story and I was tired of going over the same script over and over again and making unnecessary changes. No contact after that. I didn't get paid and never heard from the guy again.

A complete waste of time. I could have been working on something else entirely. I had a contract but I don't have the time of patients to try to sue. Besides it wouldn't be worth it, as the amount would barely pay one month's rent, less after lawyer fees.

The better the outline, the less you'll spend fixing problems and the more time you'll spend working on improving things. People who don't outline tend to have major issues upfront with first drafts

Employers want & pay for outlines: tv writing & feature assignments. Good Luck staying home & winging spec scripts

Screenwriting is rewriting so get used to it.

The characters you created are depending on you to revisit them...to hopefully hear them out... maybe try a few scenes their way...

Wow. A lot of pantsers on here. I'm a firm believer that that's a sure-fire way to get lost/"writer's block". I'm a serial outliner. I have outlines for my next 3-dozen scripts!

Anthony Moore I had a producer a few years ago hire me to write a webseries, and it went similar to what you experienced. We talked about ideas. I wrote an outline for the season. He came back with notes that were essentially a totally different (but related) story. I wrote a new outline. He came back with notes that were ANOTHER totally different (but related) story. I wrote a third outline. He came back with notes that were ANOTHER ANOTHER totally different (but related) story. I quit.

Maurice Vaughan Typos kill me because I'm a TERRIBLE speller, and more than half the time don't even realize something is a mistake.

Dan Guardino I've been at this for over 20 years. I will never get used to it. I just get so bored reading the same story (or reading the same book, or watching the same movie) over and over... even if I wrote the damn thing! lol

Phil Stubbs I have always thought the writers who "let the characters tell them the story" are completely delusional! lol The characters are your imagination, not some separate entity. When I write a script... I... AM... GOD! And I'm not a god who's given my creatures free-will. They do what I say.

Travis Seppala Rewriting screenplays is boring for me as well. Guess that is what makes it feel like just a job and that's not always fun especially if I don't like the screenplay.

I love what I am doing, sounds dumb. But when I am outlining I am enjoying that. When I am

writing I am enjoying that.

Perhaps the final edit and polish I hate. I am dyslexic so I know I will miss out words or have issues with word order. So that gives me a little fear.

Relatable. I' have my hubby read for typos, but I typically wait for rewrites when working with a producer. Because they will have changes anyhow.

I enjoy outlining and hate significant rewriting too.

To me, if a draft needs a major rewrite, something is seriously wrong with the process.

Something to remember is that outlining becomes a subconscious skill after a lot of practice. I've found myself outlining during conversations with producers when discussing story ideas.

I used to do a lot of rewrites on my screenplays when I first started out. After I had a lot more experience I now only do one or two and final polish. So I think the more experience a screenwriter has they less they have to rewrite. Anyway that is how it seemed to do for me and I am just a self taught hack.

Travis, I like the whole process...in fact, I LOVE the entire process!

As long as I can come up with six plot points [an idea I borrowed from made-for-TV movies...a plot point representing a commercial break (AKA end of an act)], I can develop an outline for a screenplay. The six plot points are the first efforts to get what I'm writing to make sense and to resonate with whoever's reading it.

Character profiles come next...and then I can write the script itself.

I like to edit as I write. It's an effort to generate fewer rewrites...a la the legendary 1960s-70s team of Bill Persky and Sam Denoff. (Okay...I'm showing my age...)

Don't like it when I still find typos in what I've turned in...but I like getting rid of the typos.

Thanks for the post...glad you're here on Stage 32! Here's to more and more success!

CJ Walley Well, the two I'm doing now both needed major rewrites, because....

For the adaptation job -- the producers decided we should take one of the lead characters in a different direction from what the source material did. So had to change a ton based on that. Like, they seriously went "You wrote this role just as he is in the book... unfortunately, we think that's the problem." lol

For the sci-fi spec, I had 2 paid set of notes on the 1st draft... both of whom brought up very convincing arguments that a) one of my leads didn't do much of anything for the story and b) my third act introduced an element that overshadowed the entire script and made it feel like a totally different movie for the last 20 pages. So I did a major overhaul to what I HOPE is a stronger story this time around.

Dan Guardino I generally work like this:

1) outline

2) rewrite of outline until it's bulletproof

3) draft 1

4) time away

5) draft 2

6) get readers

7) compile reader notes

8) do extra pass of my own

9) draft 3

10) send it out.

Of course, when working on an assignment, I gotta change that based on producer notes coming at every step.

Cannon Rosenau Wait, so are you suggesting you don't do any writing beyond the 1st draft unless there's a producer involved??

Jim Boston

1) I thought made-for-TV-movies had 9-act structures?

2) I never do character profiles. I've always thought of it as a waste of time to do extra ancillary writing like that that nobody but me will ever see.

3) I know a lot of writers who do the edit-as-you-go workflow. For me, I can't see that working. I feel like I'd never finish the 1st draft if I was constantly going back to tweak things as I go... plus I find that things that feel like they work early one don't work, but don't find out until later in the process. For me, it's far preferable to do an entire draft... then go and mark-up the script with all the notes I have while reading it (after time spent away from it so I forget my original intent and excitement) so I can tear it apart with a fresh mind.

4) Yeah... sometimes I still have a typo in the "final" draft that I missed because I'm an AWFUL speller and don't realize something is wrong no matter how many times I look at it.

Travis Seppala Pretty much, but I'm typically writing on contract so that's a different beast, especially when the director and the producer both have different visions. Add a character, take out one of the mains...the budget! Ack! But even on my specs, I'm not much of a rewriter. I wrote a feature script in 3 weeks at the request of my agent so she could pitch to one of her connections. Anyhow, that fell through so I submitted to a couple contests and was a finalist in a couple and a nominee for the Christian Content Media awards (top 3). I got beat out by my old professor so that's okay ha.

The changes I've now made to it were at the request of a producer I'm working with on developing it.

PS I will sometimes if nothing is happening with the script, will re-read it and see if there needs to be any changes. But I usually have to put it down for a month or 2 before I do that.

Cannon Rosenau I'm a firm believer that the first draft of everything sucks. (it's even a chapter in my book! lol) My process once I have a first draft is to let it sit for a month, then read it and mark it up with notes, create a draft 2, then get as many people as I can find (writers, non-writers, men, women, those with and without ties to the material, etc) to read and give me their notes, then use those notes and another pass of my own to come up with a draft 3. That's the draft I go out with.

Yeah the first draft for me is kinda painful and for some reason I always top out at around 90-100 pages... not that much really considering so much will change. But then the rewrite period really gets fun for me delving into each act, the arc structure, more depth of character, their desires, their voices etc... the second act is really the toughest aspect for me I gotta say. I'm pretty natural with dialogue and scenes; its just the whole damn structure thing that is so painful. I can set up the world nicely when I have a concept and build up the barriers holding back the protag from moving from the old world (Act I) into the new world (Act II) but then it's the dreaded 60-pages or so of the second act before we get into the Act III and the resolution... throwing everything but the kitchen sink in the way of their goals... I do break Act II into two separate acts, so play with a 4-Act structure, and I find that this really does make it all less daunting. Actually Christopher Volger has always been an amazing inspiration to me. He's the one that first broke down the the 4-act structure concept that I embraced. He has some great books and Audible stuff I highly recommend checking out... he's super positive and really discusses the mythical structure of writing which I love. Screenwriting is the modern day equivalent of gathering the tribe around the fire in the wilderness at night.

To Travis: I am a senior dude who has been writing etc. for a long time. I grew up in LA and watched the main TV channels. From the 1980's forward there have been a variety of formats for made-for-TV-movies. For a while, in the 1980's Channel 4? had this setup where, same day, evening each week, one of four individual shows was presented. They gave a much fuller two hours with less commercials and other perks like having the show FADE to commercial and then FADE back. The most important is to just write out your story, don't think about anything else. You can take the finished story, and maybe add more for more time or maybe a special could be two days etc.

Travis is right, you have to leave it alone for awhile and let your brain digest it, then take that fourth look.

Travis, you're absolutely correct about the nine-act structure...today's Hallmark/Lifetime/etc. made-for-TV movies roll that way. (I've read where some TVers use a seven-act structure.)

When I first attempted to break in (1980), TV-movies used a six-act structure...at least, that's how Constance Nash and Virginia Oakey put it on Page 68 of their 1978 manual, "The Television Writer's Handbook."

I liked the structure and decided to stick with it...and after I joined Stage 32 in January 2019, I learned about Michael Hauge's plot system (and decided to adopt that, too).

It's tempting to skip character profiles...the only reason I do the profiles is I find it fun to see just how these characters would interact with (or against) each other.

On top of that, I admire writers who can come up with that first draft in one fell swoop (or more) and can go back and do multiple drafts. It's great to be able to fly by the seat of your pants that way.

I know...the perfectionist in me says: "Jim...make EFFING sure you've got all your ducks in a row before you shoot!"

Still...

Well, I've rambled on enough...thanks for the feedback (and the post itself)!

We have the same process Travis Seppala lol

Someone once said - I think Linda Seger or another expert on screenwriting - that rewriting is the ability to showcase your story even more.

Re-writes are tough. But sometimes if you give yourself some space from your project and re-visit it with fresh eyes, some things will stand out to you that you mat want to change or it may help make sense of some notes you've been given.

Ewan, exactly.

It doesn't make sense to work on something by forcing yourself onto it. Everything has to flow naturally. Also, being motivated helps. lol