Screenwriting : Proofread your crap! by David Liberman

"I just got done.."? Grammar! (I'm being fatuous, of course.) I agree completely; I hate scripts which haven't been adequately proofread. It's a source of constant frustration to me. Right now, I've just taken over directing a play at the eleventh hour, and the plot involves two fugitives trying to reach the "boarder." That said, I appreciate that proofreading itself is a difficult proposition. I wrote a novella a few years ago, and three different people proofread it for me - each one of them found different errors.

Hi David, It is so sad to think that when reading someones work which is a little of them, you feel so angry about the misstakes they make. When a writer is writing they have to write with there hearts not there heads. Yes you are right it should be proofread but sometimes you can look and look and still not see the misstakes made. So from an old writer from many years now, 35 or so which is, maybe before you were borned we all make misstakes my friend. Mary Filmer author Australia

David you are really angry about this. Have a look at Poppy the troll on my website http://maryfilmer.com/ He is one of my new series of books characters. He will give you a smile on your faces and then maybe you will for give the writer who mad you so angry. Mary Filmer Author Australia

Mary, I am not angry. I am a professional. If you do not respect your work, why should I? It really is that simple.

David I still would like you to look at Poppy he is really cute. I understand what you said my friend and yes we all want to be professional but sometimes it is hard if you have read your work over and over again to see the misstakes. But you as a pro should know that and understand we are all human first before we are writers. I maybe understand it more than you for I could not read or write till I was quite old. In my day schools did not see children who had problems with there spelling or what ever. But if you are a writer or a story teller you will not let that stop you. I never stop learning, even now. I have been to university and still I make misstakes. But I do try to be a good story teller. Don't be to hard on us for our short comings, it has taken me many years and a whole lotof tears to get to this point in my life David. People like me need people like you to be there for us when we need you. I do not say we should not try and make our work the best we can but David we can only try our very best. I still think you would like Poppy. Mary Filmer Author

It's tough love. David has passion. I used Microsoft Word to find my spelling and punctuation errors. I export my script from celtx, open it in MS Word and it finds 99% of my errors. It saves me a lot of work.

David I quite agree but I am sure you will also agree when I say a fewpeople are prejudiced.

Absolutely agree. I had script coverage done and even paid a little extra to have spelling checked. I was pleasantly surprised to get a note back that spelling and grammar were exemplary. Doesn't mean I let that slip- ever.

Totally agree. A writers job is to capture the readers/audiences imagination and keep them in that world until fade out. Anything in the script that disrupts the flow of the story, such as spelling mistakes, will suggest you're not capable of this.

If you struggle to format a script get Final Draft. I have version 8 at the moment. Works wonders! Spelling is another story.

I couldn't have said that better myself, but still people don't listen.

Amen!

Are you kidding? People in REAL LIFE don't talk 'correctly' and proper English. Am not saying am for it, but look at some movies recently? Full of INCORRECT language and expressions. Am a producer and I must have read 8000 scripts in the last 40 years and I will NEVER, EVER look at the spelling, syntax and all those things everyone is so obsessed for some reason. What I look for is what's the STORY! Evidently many movies now days don't have a story but tons of VFX and BS mindless people love to see. Scripts rejected because spelling is just plain nonsense. I read scripts full of mistakes, spellings and other things, yet the studio picked it up and made it. It's because the STORY was there, any person can correct the spelling in the rewrite if that's so important. Screenwriters take this advice: Stop trying to sell your work to studios, they will never buy it no matter how good it is. They are more comfortable with their own writers and people who are trustworthy. They don't know where you got the story and may have been copied, stolen, Etc. The solution for screen writers is here: Find indie shooters and people who is NOT in the business yet and give them your script to shoot.... free! Once your movie if ever made becomes a success, you can ask money for your next screen play. Or, get a prosumer camera and shoot it yourself. It's not difficult as you think. If nothing else, collaborate with someone who has the equipment and some experience. I've seen many talented people make fantastic movies on zero budget, so there is hope. If you can't write but one story and think it's the best think there is, you're not a screen writer. A good screen writer can write a story within a week. I know, I wrote full feature on a week-end and most is four days. Throw away all those How-to books and do it YOUR way.

Thank you Frank, maybe we are the oldies who have been around for a long time and seen a lot of the young come and go. But I agree with you, it is the talent that is the most important part of writing for some people can spell and do all that is asked of them but if they do not have the talent nothing is going to make it for them. This industry has a lot of people wanting this and that but it takes a lot of hard work and most of all TALENT. Did I spell that right? Mary Filmer Australian Author.

Frank, I don't want to sound like an A-hole here, but everything you just said is an utter crock of shit. YOU may not care about spelling, syntax and grammar, but any producer worth their salt does. Feel free to ask them. I am friends with producers from Broken Road Productions to Relativity Media to motherf'n DREAMWORKS. You are "producer" in Oregon. Next, I never said in dialogue, grammar must be perfect, but it better be correct for the character. A character can say, "Bob gone get 'im a gun." But in action it better say, "Bob gets a gun." I dread for any film you produce.

Frank, I don't want to sound like an A-hole here, but everything you just said is an utter crock of shit. YOU may not care about spelling, syntax and grammar, but any producer worth their salt does. Feel free to ask them. I am friends with producers from Broken Road Productions to Relativity Media to motherf'n DREAMWORKS. You are "producer" in Oregon. Next, I never said in dialogue, grammar must be perfect, but it better be correct for the character. A character can say, "Bob gone get 'im a gun." But in action it better say, "Bob gets a gun." I dread for any film you produce.

Plus, anyone on here, don't listen to leeches like this guy. Never give away your work for free... Although, I think this subject has already been covered ad nauseum.

Thank you for your kind remarks. It really shows what kind of an ass you are, making assumptions I produce in Oregon. You have much to learn about this business and obviously you know nothing about how to sell your work. Let me give you some facts; 99.9"% of the screen writers never sell anything! There are at least a million or more screenplays written every year in the US according to estimates by this business. Look it up. Not all registered, but people write them and no one knows about it. I was generous to give it a 1/10th a percent who will sell something and it's far less that 1/10th when you add up the number of success from UNKNOWN writers. The studios NEVER buy anything from a nobody. I know I worked in all the major studios in LA for 40 years. (Go right ahead and Google me... you'll find nothing because I don't want to be bothered anymore.) You give false hope to screenwriters. No matter how good is the story they will never sell it as the way you and others preach because it's pure BS! If they do get an option, it don't mean they're going to make it. I'd bet on independent producers who can produce it for zero money to get this writer known as an exchange and he/she can recover expenses if its marketable. Any writer who can't write more 'masterpieces' and think it's the best thing in the world, is not a writer but a hack. A good writer can put a story together daily. It's done in TV, Cable, Etc. every single day. Features are over rated and screen writers should concentrate on smaller scale to get better chance to succeed. Make shorts is one option and get real experience in the process. Forget money, it's not gonna happen to an unknown and you KNOW that. Nepotism is king in this business, as you quickly brought it up as who you KNOW and not what you have DONE. You'd be shocked if I tell you who I know in this business but I never mention it to anyone. I don't need to because my past work speaks for itself. BTW, thank you for looking down on 'Oregon', and hope you will never set foot here, the shithole LA is a perfect place for you and your BS advice. Well dude, you set the tone with your comments, I just continue it.... speaking your language.

@Frank - Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Please, dude. Give me some of your made up facts. Anyone who uses the word "fact" and then follows it with "99,9% of the..." is obviously talking out of their ass. I also love how you say, "i've worked for every studio for over 40 years, but don't google me, because you won't find anything, 'cause I've worked hard to have it removed." or whatever BS you said like that. Youbhave done so much and you don't need to mention names of who you know, because your work speaks for itself, as you say. Yet, when I look you up, there is no work under your name... Let me explain something to you, pal. If you had worked as a producer, for the studios for over 40 years, your name would be 100+ pages deep on Google and you wouldn't be able to do a thing to remove it. You are a charlatan. You are a wannabe producer here to leech screenplays off of aspiring screenwriters. And let's be clear, genius. I wasn't shitting on Oregon, but it ain't exactly the mecca for film, now is it? Go back into the hole from whence you came.

Why are you guys fighting? Isn't the goal here to assist others in achieving their dream? Having published three novels, the only way that I can write so my story flows freely is to hire an editor to deal with all the grammar issues. (Which by now some of you would probably be saying- should have used one writing this email.) I would never finish anything if I had to stop and analyze every run-off sentence, correct use of the correct punctuation mark, etc. I think it should be whatever works for the writer and not type-cast. Heck, sometimes I read up to five novels a week and haven't found one that was not flawed or had blatant typos, yet they still got published. Let's face it, it's a tough business to break into, but when prose becomes film, there is no one spell checking the dialogue on camera.

One word.. reasonable.

Flame wars. The curse of the internet. I understand Frank's points - yes, the chances of getting a script in a studio's hands are slim at best. Yes, story is key. But not knowing the difference between their and there (for example) demonstrates a deficiency in craft. If you don't know how to choose the right words, how can you be expected to choose the right events for a character's back story?

Sorry, didn't mean to get all preachy. I just do not like joining groups and people always trying to one-up someone else on the site. People are entitled to their own opinions and thoughts and we all need to learn the act of compromise. They do that on many of the genealogy groups I belong to. Someone has to always be right and it drags on and on...someone once implied I wasn't of Native American descent because I didn't live in that area four hundred years ago? Duh! Then they starting a flaming campaign because I had shared a paragraph from an on-going book titled, Silent Drums and used the appropriate word "squaw" at the time of the piece within the prose which is now considered derogatory. We have records that labeled my ancestors "pink people", I guess a more polite term? If you believe Adam and Eve were the first humans then let's face it, we're all related. Just assume we are all brilliant and talented in our own right. I probably should have stopped at my first sentence. lol.

I guess I would just chalk it off as being a minor typo if the rest of the story line flowed. I am a believer that imperfection is more entertaining and realistic than perfection. My editor used to laugh at all the words I tried to combine at times, thus creating my own new words. She knew me very well so she knew what word I had intended to use. But let's face it, all words were generated from someone and had to get their start somewhere. I will use this example: If you were at a large Board meeting and asked three different people to keep notes,chances are that there would be three different accounts of the same minutes. If I was one of the scribes and I knew that bonuses was on the running agenda; I would be focused on any monetary discussions and my spin on the minutes would probably detect that. I don't know about you,but I can get "brain freeze" at times and I can't even remember how to spell the most common word, "the." There are so many to choose from such as: affect /effect, then/ than. right/write, etc. That's why I admit my flaws run towards imperfection and that I let a perfectionist (editor) do their magic before I submit any work. (Sorry, she was unavailable today to check this out before hitting "send". I also have a habit of my thoughts running faster in my head than my fingers can type. )

Typo: was should be were on the running agenda, where is my editor?

If grammar flaws reflect the character, okay. If grammar flaws reflect the writers skill level, why bother. Personally, II wouldn't read a script or play if it was not formatted properly.

By, "got done reading" did you actually read the whole script?

Agreed. I'm brand new at the acting biz (1st film in April) but I've had 2 sides that I could barely understand! Not wishing to put a bullet in my brand new career, I had to call the directors on both projects & ask if I could re-work the wording. I got great responses both times. They looked over my sides and said go for it. It's hard to rehearse lines that make no sense. Mind you, these were short films, I'm non-union, and can't afford to pass up anything at this point!

Truthfully, I think writers that do this are just starting out. I was a judge in a screenwriting festival and I could tell which writers were more professional and which were newbies. The ones that put the effort into making it look professional usually had a better story too. It's rare to see well written scripts with lots of mistakes. By the time someone is ready to sell their scripts, they stop making these mistakes. At least that's what I noticed.

ahhh Men! What school they went...LOL

Debate and freedom of speech are two things I cherish. Name calling and flaming are two things I do not. This is a terrific conversation with many accurate points, I might add. Please keep it civil and productive. Thanks.

I agree 100%. I got the same "you're ignoring the story" defence all the time on Talentville, TriggerStreet and Zoetrope. You'd never trust a carpenter who had great ideas for a house but didn't know which end of a hammer to swing. You'd never trust a chef who loved food but didn't know how to cook. Writing is already an extraordinarily challenging field to break into -- I don't understand the writers who think a demonstration of illiteracy is some kind of badge.

Ryan, so true! You want to hire a writer that cares about their work and takes the time to care about how it's structured. Now, like I said, new writers seem to be overwhelmed by even getting from Fade In to Fade Out. So I get that. But you can tell they just aren't ready to sell anything. Maybe in time they will be. But just not ready if they can't focus on the basics.

@Tanya Gren - Yes, I did read the entire script. Personally, I think Denise nailed it. It's the difference between and amateur and a professional. I have a difficult time understanding how anyone can call themselves a screenwriter, but could care less about the writing part. Too often, folks chalk screenwriting off as being "not real writing." They say it is so much easier than writing a novel. They also live under the misnomer that it isn't about the writing, but the idea, and that Hollywood buys great ideas. This then lends itself to get every plumber, carpenter, school teacher, cop, etc etc to write a screenplay -- without studying the craft -- whereby diminishing what it is that we do. If it was as easy as everyone thinks it is, there'd be thousands upon thousands of script sales per year. Obviously, what we do is not easy. I'm not saying it's more difficult than writing a novel. It's just as difficult... and extremely different. The point I am making here, is that SCREENWRITING IS REAL WRITING. If you want to be taken seriously, then you must respect the craft. Look, could you imagine what Mozart's music would have sounded like had he never studied music? It may have been good, but it would never have been what it was. And this is just it. In classical music, there is a format -- a way to notate the music on the page -- so that any orchestra can pick it up and play it, like it is meant to be played. The same thing goes with formatting, spelling, syntax and grammar in a screenplay. So, that when and if your script goes into production, everyone from the director to the gaffer understand what is going on and what is supposed to happen. This is a blueprint for a movie. A film crew does not want to spend time trying to decode your chicken scratches. If you want your screenplay to be read and considered by professionals, then you must treat it like a professional, yourself.

As people frequently point out, the odds of selling a new script might be 1:40,000 or 1:50,000. But this is not accurate because it assumes it's a lottery that you have a 1:50,000 chance of winning. Over 80% of the specs floating around are pure dreck that increasingly look like they were written in a hurry on a smartphone because of their lack of fundamentals. I take pride in my writing, my oratory, my rhetoric. When a script is a pleasure to read compared to the stack of barely-literate birdcage fodder holding the reader's desk down against sudden reversals of localized gravity, your odds go up exponentially. Call me arrogant but I still believe writers are the chaperones of culture. We've gotten a little soft lately. Writers lead the charge on demonstrating the value of what a writer brings to the table and taking pride in the craft in an increasingly illiterate-yet-unilingual world.

I have to agree with David. If you are a screenwriter, your business is writing. Spelling mistakes are not really acceptable (they're not even acceptable at school). To those who state they look for story, not spelling; I have to disagree because in my opinion, there is a direct correlation between sloppy writing and sloppy storytelling. Seasoned, professional screenwriters can look at a script and if page one has spelling and syntax errors, over detailed action and flat dialogue, it's almost a certainty that the script will not get any better. A VP at a studio told me "If a writer makes spelling mistakes, they are not taking their work seriously. So why should I" So please ignore the nay-sayers, take pride in your work and give yourself every opportunity to succeed.

I'm a great proofreader! I learned it in business school and in English class ..loll But, I need to learn more about Syntax etc.. now I like certain things.. someone just corrected me on using Caps a lot.. for my film Titles.. is it this serious?? I also like to use Quotations only for a certain film Title.. how do producers look at film titles with Quotations.. if it fits the film?

Seems there's a lot of sloppiness these days in every aspect of production. I'm sitting here transferring my old home video from the 80s and notice that the shaky and carefree shooting I used back then because "we were having family fun" is now the norm for many TV ads and films...LOL. I can't stand seeing those moves in the professional world.

Okay, so here is a real story that happened to me in regards to this subject. I optioned one of my screenplays to a producer here in Hollywood. Over the following six months we met at his office and worked on fine-tuning the feature to get it to the point where he felt it was the best it could be to get folks attached (Director/Stars/Etc). This, by the way, is a very common step in the sales process... Anyway, at one of these meetings we spoke about typos. He discovered 7 typos in my entire 111 page screenplay. Think about that for a second. Out of approx. 20,000 words, 7 were spelled incorrectly. Just 7. A mere 7. I asked him if that was a bad thing. He looked up at me, and with a very serious and stern look, he said, "That is an acceptable number of typos." And then we got back to work. This, by the way, is an A-List producer. The short script I read had more than 7 typos on the first page.

yea dyslexics give up now

Wow, some interesting thoughts put forward here. What I'd like to ask is this: how many writers these days actually use pen and paper to create their stories? Don't most writers use PCs? And if that is the case, why aren't they using the spell check option that is part of the software? There is no excuse for typos, or for bad grammar. I agree that if you are sending out a piece of written work for a potential deal, then you should be checking it and re-checking it (or get someone to check it for you) before you send it. Some producers/directors may not be fussed over such things, but you should be - its called 'pride'.

It's a little jarring to read but rarely shows up on something like Triggerstreet labs, so maybe it's just the crowd or the lack of threat that convinces people it's ok to use internet grammar- my most hated is the lose/loose mistake that has now made its way printed op-ed pieces.

And 2 pet peeves of mine are there-their-they're & to-too-two

I think you made your point - thank you for the sound advice.

If any of you have scripts you'd like to have professionally proofread, please consider contacting me. I'm an optioned and produced screenwriter with over 16 years of proofreading experience, and my rates are very reasonable. You may email me directly at atniemi@gmail.com

Trick I use to eliminate context typos... in Final Draft, I press "Command F" and type "there" in the search box and look through every one and check it's correct. I do the same for "they're, there, to, too and two". How can people confuse loose and lose?

The point David is making, and I hope I'm not being presumptuous, is that one of the most basic and obvious things a writer has control over, in regards to presenting a "finished" screenplay to a producer/CE/ agent, is grammar and spelling. As writers, we have very little control over what happens once our script has left our hands; why would you release this piece of yourself, that you've worked so hard on and slaved over endlessly (hopefully), without the basic necessities required to give it the best chance at success? It's like sending your child to school partially dressed! I've been working as a consultant recently and I'm reading 5-6 scripts a week. I CANNOT BELIEVE the total lack of professionalism when it comes to spelling and grammar in MOST of these screenplays! NOT ONE of these scripts, wherein there are mistakes on a page-to-page basis, has a compelling or interesting story. If I wasn't getting paid to read them, I would definitely stop after the first ten pages. IMAGINE HOW A PRODUCER FEELS when they have the luxury of simply saying "Pass, what else is there?". All you people saying "It's the story that counts" really need to give your head a shake and try swallowing this not-so-bitter pill. It is a simple fact that if your spelling and grammar are below a professional level, then anyone reading your screenplay will assume the same about your writing ability. Again, THIS IS SOMETHING YOU HAVE CONTROL OVER, why would you send off anything less than your best effort? Spelling and grammar are elements that NEED to be top notch simply to keep you in the game. It's like making weight in boxing: if you don't make the weight, you don't get to fight. Once you make weight, THEN there's a thousand other things that factor in to your chances of success. I just read a VERY well-written script, by a very smart and knowledgeable writer. The style was good, the spelling and grammar were great (like, exceptional), and I still gave it a pass because the story was inconsistent and lacking in narrative focus. Halfway through, I was thinking, "This guy sure is smart. His writing is very good. Too bad the story sucks." What I'm trying to say, and what David originally was positing, I think, is that spelling and grammar are just QUALIFICATIONS that get you access to the next round of scrutiny from people that are in the position to make your screenplay into an actual film (which is what you want, isn't it??). This is THEIR club, after all; if they say "formal dress required", don't show up in jeans and a t-shirt.

Michael you're so right! I have seen many writers in writer groups who don't want to go that extra mile, and wouldn't help me get to that extra mile. And I noticed when I would get my scripts places, it wasn't getting me noticed. I switched writer groups after I realized this. There are certain writers who just want to pretend their idea is enough. It's not! Even now I'm working with this huge A-list producer and this film exec friend of mine, I told him I got approval to start writing the script. And he said something like, welcome, or you're just on the beginning of your career. Something that basically made me feel like all these years and years of writing and caring about grammar only got me at the beginning of my career! That I still have a long way to go! Writers, we are up against a lot of really professional writers out there who are making a living at this. If we want to compete, we must up our game. It's the only way. Like you said Michael, writers that don't do that will just have producers that discard the script. Believe me, when I was a writer in the film festival, I felt the same way. It was painful to read scripts that had horrible grammar, missing punctuation. Those scripts always seemed to have no story either.

I always tell my daughter, "If you want something from someone, make it as easy as possible for them to give it to you." Several years ago I was a reader for a boutique agency and then an actor's prodco. I HAD to read everything I was given - FADE IN: to FADE OUT:. I remember one feature screenplay had over 500 typos, misspellings, grammar, and punctuation mistakes. I'm not normally that obsessive, but after three pages I went back to the beginning and started to keep track. And the even sadder part: The story wasn't really worth the read. How do you suppose I felt about THAT writer by the time I finished? When I used to teach this stuff, I'd tell my students, "Look, you're asking total strangers to invest tens of millions of dollars and spend thousands of man-hours based on a three-quarter-inch-thick stack of paper. They need to trust you. And one way to engender that trust is to show you care by handing them as pristine a piece of work as you can." I'm the second worst speller in the world. I'll read any combination of "t," "h," and "e" as "the." Any order. Doesn't matter. That's why I have at least five people go over my work before I show it to an outsider - not for the story, but rather for technical writing mistakes. A screenplay that forces the reader to (1) keep stumbling and tripping, and (2) keep doubling back is like someone loaning you his car for a month and having something go wrong with it every single day - something YOU have to get fixed or have no car to drive. NONE of this will make a better story or better characters. But it will make a screenplay readable. Don't think it's important? Okay by me. We're swimmin' the race together, you 'n' me. Think I care if you strap another cinder block around your waist?

David – I’m a screenwriter and small time producer. I know exactly what you are saying. After writing a script and editing it to what I think is perfection – I give it to a line editor. It’s amazing what she finds. What annoys me is a writer who doesn’t grasp the basic format – and then argues with me about it. I’ll help anyone who wants to become better at the craft, but if they argue – I won’t read their script, I certainly won’t produce their work nor offer any help or guidance at all.

It's not just spelling that's an issue in the majority of scripts it's the too much black on the page I term "WORDINESS". Over detailed action; twenty lines deep, to describe someone walking down the street and then a single line of dialogue. If I flip through a script and it's action heavy, I already know it's got problems, because, too much action = not enough story.

@doug - Those writers are the worst! You offer format advice and they act like you told them you want to eat their first born.

David, Your rant is nothing new. We all wish that the crap we read wasn't crap. We wish that other writers would be more careful with their stuff. We wish that it was better than it is. If you're involved in peer-to-peer review you quickly understand that if you're any good, that these people are not usually your peers. And that's okay. I've been on all of the peer sites. I've done close to 80 reviews on Zoetrope. About 40 on Trigger Street. And now close to 100 on Talentville, as well as numerous reads on Simply Scripts, Track-board forums, etc. And the problem you're mentioning here is universal on all of them. In fact, I'd say that Talentville is the highest quality I've found for peer review sites. BUT... it's still a peer review site. The problem, in my opinion is two-fold. 1) Most writers go to a peer review site because they've seen that someone has gotten repped or they've won a contest from the site. They think that putting their stuff on these sites will get them repping or sell them a script. But in my opinion, this is highly faulty thinking. Peer review sites are really good for nothing except getting better as readers and thus becoming better as writers. The more bad scripts you read and the more you can recognize what is bad, then the more you can know what to avoid in your writing. But also, as you receive reviews from other writers you begin to see how unclear your writing is, how things you thought people should understand are not connecting, how your writing simply isn't good enough. But very rarely does this lead to a sale itself. It simply helps the average horrible amateur writer become not quite as horrible (IF they are willing to do the hard work of learning how to be better). So, there are unrealistic expectations on that side of things. 2) For those of us who might be a little further in our journey, we get frustrated when other writers don't take it as seriously as we do. So, we write posts like David here wrote. And I think the expectation is a little unrealistic on this side of things, too. The writers who take it seriously are few and far between. Some of that might be because they don't know WHAT to take seriously. Honestly, my 1st coupla scripts, I missed typos not because I didn't search... but because it takes time to master the art of proofreading. Now, my drafts get applauded for lack of typos. I'm 14 scripts in and I've learned how to look. But I needed people to help me figure out what to look for. And formatting? Don't even get me started. It took me 5-6 screenplays to get it right. The books I read first were old and told me to do things that are out of vogue now. But the more I got stuff pointed out to me, the more I realized how to do it right. I have gotten TONS from peer-to-peer review sites. Especially Talentville. I think it's hands down the best one. You get paid TV $ to review. Technically a script must be finished to get credit for the review, so it induces people to be able to help you figure out, on the whole, why your script doesn't work. But it really comes down to this: those further along in their writing path have to be willing to help those not-so-far along if the peer review system is to work. Some people like helping others. Some people don't. One isn't right or wrong... just preference. I enjoy helping people understand the mistakes they're making are hurting their growth as writers... because people did it for me and it helped me. Chris

@Chris - I couldn't agree more. This was not a slam against Talentville. I actually like that site. It was my frustration with the writer. But I have said my peace and made my point. I am not one to kick a dead horse.

And my response wasn't a rant against you. Just kind of speechifying on the subject. : )

I don't think you're kicking a dead horse. You're frustrated like many of us, so you hit a nerve we can relate to! I think when someone writes a script that has brads and says Fade In and Fade Out they think, viola! I'll have a career! And it's not that simple. I hate when I hear someone say they are going to pick up screenwriting, but can't find the time to write. In my mind, I'm thinking, this is never going to happen for you. No one would treat being a MD like screenwriting. They wouldn't say, I think I'm going to dabble in being a doctor. And not that screenwriting is surgery, but it's a lot of frigin hard work and takes true discipline and study. Anything less than that, and the writer will never make it.

I think that's part of it @Denise. I've spent a lot of time over the years listening to the radio but I have never had the hubris to think, "Hey, I could make music better than that." But for some reason, a lifetime of exposure to media -- film, TV, lit, etc -- instills a misplaced confidence among the newbies that they can bang out a script in no time, that having an idea for a story is the hard work and they can phone in the writing. I've spoken at a lot of conferences and have had people approach me after my talk saying, "Hey, tell ya what -- I've got a brilliant idea for a [script/novel/game]. Why don't I tell you the idea, you write it up and we'll split the profits 50/50!" I laugh to keep from cryin'.

@Ryan I've totally had that too! Where someone will say so I have this amazing film idea I just need some to write it up. I'm like, well there are screenwriting classes and books... They look at me like, oh, I have to learn this stuff? Lol

@Denise and Ryan. That's the worst. I am also a former professional comic book illustrator. I remember people would find out and they would say, "I have this awesome idea for a comic book. Now hear me out." Then I would be stuck for twenty minutes listening to their crappy idea. They would follow it by offering me a percentage of the back end. RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT. Like I'm gonna' draw your book -- For no money up front -- because you asked. Crazy. I would usually respond with, "Sorry. I'm busy working for DC Comics, but the local community college offers cheap art classes."

LOL Niiiiice! I once had a friend who wanted to get into screenwriting and got a book and was learning it from that and wanted to write together. So I thought okay, I'll help her out, why not, even though I'd be doing all the heavy lifting. At the same time we were starting a website business together. Well, she ended up wanting 75% of the business for which I did 50% of the work. So ended the business right before we launched. And guess who's never getting a screenwriting career?

I think it all comes down to people "think" writing is easy. So when they ask us to write their idea, it's like, well, you can do it, it's easy. They don't realize how much we've studied to learn our craft. I'm a freelance ad writer too and I can't tell you how many assignments I work on and pull out the words from thin air because I get no direction, only to be made to feel like I didn't make them happy. It's like you come up with this out of thin air when no one gives you direction! Argh!!!

This post caught my eye at the same moment an associate and I were discussing a pitch letter she received that failed to follow the rules of the road eschewing punctuation, spelling and a general knowledge of life on planet Earth. I hate to sound negative and prefer to offer advice that focuses on the positive but I still believe a writer should be able to write. I understand that there is a difference between storytelling and writing but the people to whom you are wanting to sell your material have so many choices, you really don't want to be handing them reasons to say no.

I've done the same thing. The first script they gave me it was so-o bad after three days I gave up on it and sent it back. Then I do a stint as a reader for a production company and wow what a difference. I had a discussion with my brother about which came first the story idea or the presentation. Guess what? First impressions come first.

If you want to learn about successfully selling your writing, read a good book on marketing. Whatever you write, whether aimed at a broad or narrow audience, someone will need to market it and you might as well be the one to know how your project should be handled (at least to the point of sale if not through to its release as a film). When I realized that I wanted to have A-list producers, directors and stars calling me (as opposed to me knocking on their doors) to buy my original stories, I created a marketing plan that created exactly that result on an ongoing basis. Be creative and don't get in line behind 5000 other people doing what they are (unsuccessfully) doing to try to sell your work.

Thank you, Stephen. And that's my point exactly. When I am on peer-reviewed sites, I want to spend my time critiquing and helping writers with their story. I do not want to spend my time explaining where a period goes and where a comma goes. I am not an English teacher. That is not my job. And sites like that are not grammar 101. It is up to us to have our own self-discipline and learn our language correct.

I am writing it now, Adrian. :) If you can't wait twenty years for my book, I suggest browsing in your local book store (assuming any are left) and find one that suits you. Lots of expert advice can be mired in presentation and obscure, undefined references so you want to find someone whose message is clear and applicable. Keep in mind that marketing is a psy-op...

Just remember that before you market your film, you must first market your screenplay so take what is applicable and apply it to creating a demand for your script amongst the people who purchase scripts (as opposed to agents, for example)...

A serendipitous coda to this conversation: A friend of mine just sent me a short 1946 essay of Orwell's I'd never read before called "Politics and the English Language." To sum up: "Man, people are really shitty writers these days." I take solace from knowing that pro writers have been griping about this forevah. It's a long and glorious tradition.

Can't argue with Orwell--he was right about everything else! :)

That is so true and you are saying in a very positive way David :)

Writing is easy. Writing well is difficult and writing a script is exceptionally difficult. Obviously the story is the essential ingredient. When wearing my Producer’s hat, I tell writers that if they expect to see their story play out on the big screen, it must first play out on paper. There are reasons for those scene headings, concise action line blocks, even for the strange Courier 12 point type requirement. To play in this game, you must follow its rules – imagine a nine inning tennis match with goal posts and linebackers. So, learn the rules or find another game – there’s no shame in being a Dentist. As for grammar; like any profession, screenwriting has its unique jargon, characteristics and methodology. We use abbreviations (VO, OC, MOS…) all the time and just as in the space program – that’s A-OK. My sixth grade English teacher would make me stay after school if she read my scripts today. Screenwriting is picture writing, more hieroglyphic in nature (I started as a novelist.) It’s more like the choppy brush strokes of Van Gough than the sweeping works of Michelangelo.

I'm one who's been turned down for the "one typo in the first ten pages" thing. Spell check issues shouldn't mean throwing the baby out with the bath water. That's just idiotic. I've also been turned down for about a hundred other reasons. These days I tend to hit the right audience more often. I do however teach my students to strive for professionalism. I just think a zero tolerance policy is a lot to expect from artisans - pofessonal er not.

This made me think of someone's reaction to one of my scripts. "Poorly written," she said. Of all the things one could have said about the script, poorly written was not one of them, so I asked what she found wrong with it. She gave me an exasperated look and exclaimed, "The margins are off!"

LOL!!!

At one point, I was reading close to 3,000 pages a week. Fourth-grade grammar mistakes are just plain annoying. They make me stop, re-read, then, "Oh, that's what he meant," then go on. Misspelling - especially with spell-check. C'mon. One typo in the first ten pages isn't a deal breaker. But clear I-don't-really-care, sloppy, whatever-ness is totally unprofessional. Why would I consider or recommend something from a writer who clearly doesn't care? I'm not even talking about poor writing. It's like not bathing for a month then wearing dirty jeans to a job interview. No one is THAT brilliant. For every one of you or me there are hundreds more. When I read a screenplay that the writer obviously cared about in EVERY possible way, even if the story or concept was only fair, I gave it and its writer every possible break and consideration I could. I spun every negative to a marginal positive and I made sure the good parts were mentioned. The point: There are lots of things writers do that are annoying. Like putting "DAY" or "NIGHT" at the end of every single slug line. Ya know, it's day 'til it's night, then it's night 'til it's day. I get it. You've told me. Don't keep telling me. Just tell me when things change. Why make a reader slug through stuff? Easy. Crisp. Write, don't direct. Race me through your story with no "Stop" signs anywhere. And make sure I have a great time. You know the drill: YOUR screenplay is at the bottom of a stack of twenty-five or thirty I need to read and cover this week. The first five are just badly written mid-20s angst films drenched in testosterone. Different writers, nearly all the same story. The next few are over-written - just get to the point, please and does it really have to be a green Mercedes with beige interior leather? Three were either written by two-year-olds or some alien species. Then there's the one with the 500+ spelling, grammar, usage, and pretty-much-everything-else mistakes. (I almost started drinking over that one) The next one isn't bad but the writer decided to keep that dumb default "CONTINUED" on every page. No one has used that since the mid 90s. I get it's continued - there are more pages to read. And I'll know it's a different scene 'cause you'll tell me. But I see that stupid word on every page and it keeps drawing my focus off the actual writing. And then I get to yours. Exactly how clean and crisp does it have to be now? I was getting paid to find good material and/or good writers. It was never a "power trip." It was always, "Please let there be something great in this pile! Please! Just once!" Imagine the level of disappointment. And I was considered one of the more mellow and generous readers.

Good points, Hank. It should always be remembered that yours is one of many being read.Whether one of thirty actors being auditioned before lunch or one of ten scripts being read before day's end, what you show has to be stand-out. The minute it sinks to the level of an aspiring artist with no craft or discipline, the "no" comes very easily...

@Hank, Day and NIGHT is also important when the script is broken down for the of scheduling scenes, and actors.

@Marvin: Agree. But in a "shooting" script, not a "selling" one. :-D

I've always been mindful that scripts are difficult to read and make my 'selling' scripts user-friendly to the point of making inside jokes and comments to the reader in the narrative sections. Great feedback from this, by the way. However, I feel that the 'INT OFFICE DAY' heading is important for establishing what it is we are to visualize as we read even a 'selling' script.

In my early days as a writer, I used to insert terms like DAWN, AFTERNOON, EVENING, and DUSK in the slug lines. It was a Director that called me on it – he was upset that I was doing his job. Now I don’t know who came up with these unwritten rules and I really don’t care – but if I want to sell the script, I’ll follow ‘em. Now, I direct in the action text; “evening shade settles over Elm Street as…or the morning mist lies heavy on the field as…” You get the point. I get to paint the story my way and the Director thinks he’s great – how to make friends and influence people. So, every slug line ends with –DAY or –NIGHT. I made this silly “rule” work for me. You want to fight it? Go ahead, beat your brains out.

@Hank. DAY and NIGHT are essential for not only in a Shooting script, but a spec script too. Fail to use them at your peril.

In a shooting script, DAY and NIGHT are what's used for knowing what time of day to film. But, in a "Selling" or Spec Script, MORNING, AFTERNOON, EVENING, etc etc are absolutely acceptable. They are tools for storytelling. Really, once you go into production, the director will work with you and have you change them to what they want.

Well it finally happened to me. I just received feedback on a contest script. The scores were a perfect 100, a 95 and a 60, the guy at 60 found a typo so he rated the whole thing “un professional” (sic.) My editor and I still can’t find the typo. So I guess there really are anal-retentive types out there in reader land.

I couldn't agree more, David!

If I proof it, you'll probably double the number of typos! ;)

Martine, I'd be willing to proofread it when time allows. If you don't mind having to possibly wait a week or two before I get back to you about it (I'm swamped at the moment), feel free to send it my way: atniemi@gmail.com

I think this is great to find people willing to help out. I may try this myself if I need proofreading. I am also available at the moment.

David - I agree with your sentiment here and you are absolutely correct. Readers are looking for any excuse to throw a script back into the pile as they can be deluged with weekend reads 52X a year. Typos, bad spelling and improper format is a killer. In addition - a high page count - as there are those who like to look at the last page first - having read nothing that comes earlier - and decide - based purely on the number in the corner - that it's "too long". My only suggested edit to your post would be to say "Proofread your Material!" - calling it "Crap" denigrates all who write and bundles all of the writing into a class - which presupposes that whether well proofed or not - the material is garbage - which I am sure - was not your intention.

Dan - that's the kind of thinking that has hundreds of novice writers thinking they can write. When the real secret is that your "crap" needs to be BETTER than the "crap" Hollywood produces.

Oh, Sweet Jesus! You guys are getting waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too crazy over the word "Crap." Get over it, folks. I was simply venting. Relax, for Christ's sake.