Screenwriting : Received my eval from the Black List... by Bradley Spence

Thanks, Meagan. I've been doing some more reading about TBL. It seems peoples' experiences are all across the board. Like I said, I would be fine with the 5, if they would have given me something substantive I could implement. But with those really positive comments, then a really low rating, something just seems amiss. Thanks, Brad

I think Blcklst is not worth the money, and I can't stand their anonymous evaluations. You have no idea who wrote that and what their level of expertise is. I'm sorry to be a Stage 32 mark, but I think you're money is far better spent here. Their coverage services are more expensive, but you know who's giving you the feedback and as part of the more premium service you can talk to that person. A far better, more helpful experience. To top it all off, blcklst is what, $20 a month or something? And most reports I read call for multiple evaluations having to be re-written, so by the time you're a year into the process, you're out of pocket more than if you'd paid for coverage here. You can take the money you save and buy a few pitch sessions. If you get your script requested, you'll get notes back. And, again, you know the source. BTW, my script was evaled at 4/10 on blcklst, yet placed in the Final top 23 of scripts here in the Happy Writers contest.

Their notes are good. I had one of my scripts evaluated twice. The second one after making the changes recommended by the first reader came back with a worse score. It's a hit and miss game. You have to be committed to spending bucks to stay on the site. One writer I know spend almost five hundred dollars on evaluations until he received a 7 score. His wife forced him to stop. No telling how many rewrites was going to cost to get a high score.

Friends, Thanks so much for all the comments. Like I said, I really don't mind a low score, if I can learn from it. But I've read my evaluation 5 or 6 times now. I'm still having trouble understanding how I can add higher emotional stakes for my protagonist than having a lifelong friend murdered and his fiancé kidnapped. I'm now convinced the reader skimmed my script. I've already canceled the auto-renew for script hosting. Thanks, Brad

Bradley: My experience with Blacklist was unsatisfactory. It was the only time I ever paid someone to review my script and I received a one paragraph that was outright nasty. Since I don't have the review anymore, I'm going by memory. But the guy essentially said my script was the worst piece of shit he ever read. Within in months, that script placed at Austin Film Festival, Screencraft Action Script Contest and Richmond Film Festival. And based on reading what you posted, I’m not too thrilled with the feedback they gave you. By my reckoning, his scoring indicates a mediocre to poor script, which is a bit incongruent with some of his written feedback. Look, it’s entirely possible the guy skim read your work; and I assure you, it happens all the time. So if you’re looking for better script coverage, try S32 or Danny Manus and I believe Regina Lee also consults. I’ve heard good things about all of them.

Hi Bradley, I have also put my script up onto the blacklist. I also paid for an evlauation and my script had two non-white characters, one black, and one japanese. I did not get the white washed speech bit, and I don't think I wrote in a stereotypical way either, if that makes sense? My main black character never uttered one "yo" or "oh, hell, no" (something which most writers think is a staple for every black female character), so I think in terms of making it less white washed, don't try and put in any african american slang words because it can feel very forced when not used by a black person. Maybe try and just give references to their race? For example in my script, my japanese character sometimes spoke in japanese. These small references to the character's culture/race don't have to be heavy handed but it might add some authenticity. And as for black characters, if your character is the kind of person who would talk in african american slang then maybe do this? Perhaps the person who did the eval felt the character's speech didn't align in some way. But if you are going to use modern AAV make sure you know HOW to use it. A lot of white people embarrass themselves by using phrases like "on fleek" in ways which just don't make sense and don't align with the phrase's meaning. So yeah, if you do decide to add some slang or black cultural references, make sure you're using it in the right context or it might end up sounding less authentic than before which would be a shame. (But yes, don't go down the Tarantino route) Also, don't be downtrodden by your score, while it can be frustrating not to get detailed feedback, know that every person who evaluates is different. Maybe the person who did yours had done a lot that day, or was in a rush. I'd say ask for another one, but The Black List is all too costly. If you can, reach out to people on here or some cheaper services? Hope this helps

Tbl is not a service for bettering your script. It is a place to market your script. Talentville is a good spot to get cheap notes from fellow writers. I usually advise new writers to get a bunch of reviews there then once you think it's as far as you can get it, pay for coverage. One review does not a rewrite make. Reviews are opinions and you should have a few before any hard rewrite.

Bradley, those are par for the course for BL - BUT that's why writers really should seek NOTES before submitting to BL. because their coverage paragraph - and that's what it is - won't actually help you. I've had half a dozen clients land in their Recommended Scripts emails that go out, but they all said the coverage is just the price of admission. you want to use a real consultant or someone to get real notes before you send to BL. or else its throwing $75-$225 out the window

I think it probably one of the least effective ways to market your script. The site is just a scam as far as I'm concerned. You can take the money you would have spent there and buy some pitches, or submit it to some contests, or pay people on Deviant Art to make it into a comic. None of these other options will vanish if you don't pay your monthly fee.

I didn't read the notes. I did, though, have to take a second to figure out what you meant by "eval". Actually, I was clueless until reading a bit more of your post. Writers can learn from that fact alone: be clear and never assume people know what you mean.

The Blacklist has brought a casino mentality to script exposure. It's worth remembering the house always wins and the most vulnerable get hit the hardest. Every dollar you find to spend supports an industry environment that makes it impossible for those writers who can't find a dollar at all. Personally I've grown to quite dislike the site and its owner for moral and practical reasons.

I suspect you could have published your script through this site and gotten better and more constructive feedback from the members here without shelling out money!

Le sigh. The most disheartening thing about this is that it has been going on since TBL inception. The service was heralded when launched because of what the annual blacklist of scripts had done for interesting material that was difficult to get made. Though the hosting and evaluation service was never marketed as a gateway to the annual list it is about perception. Your comments mirror the majority of those who have used the 'service.' Back to the disheartening part -- they have done nothing to change the perception or the poor service. If you complain they will usually toss in a month of free hosting. I had this conversation with the powers that be their first year and they really don't care. That said, they do have a ton of initiatives that if you win the reader roulette wheel, your script can move on to great things, but clearly the reader service is an entry level gig at that price and they are given 'suggestions' as to how to soften the notes which is why the notes don't always line up with the scores. There are plenty of more effective ways to get constructive notes and move your material ahead in the industry.

Studio-style coverage always seems vague to me no matter who does it. Which is why I prefer detailed notes.

Amen, Gina! btw, BL is now a multimillion dollar company after less than 4 years. thats a lot of coverage...

Bradley, maybe you were a little too eager to get your script out there??? I know you did rewrites, but were these in a bubble?Did you get friends/family/other writers to read it first and get some FREE feedback? Did you pitch these people your logline to see if it was movie they would pay to see? I once stood outside a theater and asked people going in if I could tell them my concepts and based on feedback, prioritized what I would work on.

I have totally had your same experience, Bradley. I had a script that was in the Top 30 of the Nicholl (out of almost 7,000 entries) and got a "2" on the Black List. How is that even possible? Unless their readers are idiots (Aha!). My theory is that if you're a really intelligent, insightful script reader, you're probably working for Universal or CAA or whatever, NOT the Black List. Like you, I'm not thin-skinned. I like strong feedback. The feedback I've gotten from other sources (such as Stage 32) has certainly had its share of critical content but was much more helpful, and so much less spiteful and bitchy. The Black List REALLY needs to clean up its act.

Speaking of the Blacklist, they sent me this email this morning: Dear Phillip, We're excited to working with Northwestern to study screenwriting more in depth from a analytical perspective. We'd love to get your participation and to encourage that, we're offering you a free month of hosting if you opt into data sharing within the next week. Simply click here to go to your account settings and click opt in on the data sharing tab. You'll receive an email with a coupon code for your free month of hosting. Simply enter the coupon code under Claim Coupons under the settings tab. We'll also give you updates on any interesting findings we get. Rest assured that all information is anonymized and will never be reported publicly. The Black List Hell, a free month's a free month!

Alex, they offer coverage because that's how they make money. duh. almost 10,000 scripts uploaded mostly by amateur writers who are paying $50 for 2 coverages plus $25/mo for hosting. do the math...

Interesting thread... if you like TBL probably hold off sending in your scripts for hosting or evaluating right now. TBL just posted the Winners and Semi Finalists' List ... results of the Nicholls Fellowship for anyone to download... it's a freebee from TBL to the Nicholl winners. That's definitely Marketing ... every manager, agent, production company, producers etc... will read those before they read anything else over the next month or so. Also, when you just post your script on TBL anyone can read it... if you pay for coverage... I think it has to be a professional reader. Yes? I posted mine for only one month and received Notes... they were great and right on the money because I agreed with most of them... I was 2 points short of 8... but we know it's so subjective... To Phillip, I also received that email today... are you doing it? I'd do it if I'm not obligated to post this month for the reasons I stated above.

Sylvia: Yeah, I'll do it for free.

They offer evaluations not coverage - Franklin Leonard was specific about that from day one. What you're paying for is the scoring and the evaluation is just there to prove your script has been read in full. As for the free month, sit long enough on a slot machine and the casino will send someone over with a free burger.

Regarding the quality of their readers, they vary considerably. The biggest concern there is that the site is driving down the value of readers to minimum wage while making 100% profit off their backs. This is supposedly progression from an industry environment where you could query prodcos for free and they paid a reader fairly for coverage.

And then we have to consider all the small time prodcos, agents, managers, producers, and other industry members who don't have access to the site (because they aren't in the clique) and thus are denied the zero cost subscription to what's considered hot material.

Bradley - I had a similar experience where the score didn't match the comments. Have a look here: http://www.thirdbomb.com/#!blacklist-hot-script/cuuf The first review - the comments are amazing. It got a 7. The second review - the comments are pretty good. It got an 8. I got 17 industry downloads (I don't know if that is high, medium or low)... then some knob came along and gave it a 5. Score dropped. No one contacted me. End of story. Terminated my listing. I was warned not to spend too much money chasing a higher score. It can be tempting, like a gambler at a casino, but like others have said - you're better off getting constructive story analysis. When it's placing in contests and getting good scores elsewhere, submit it for a month or two to the BL again and see what happens. In the end, it's just one tool of many to use to market your script - and like other tools - if it doesn't work after a sensible period of time, ditch it and try something else. Good luck mate!

I've paid for many evaluations on the Black List for a whole host of scripts. What you've got to remember is that they are very subjective. Indeed for the 2 scripts currently on there I've had evaluation scores of 4 and 7 for both of them. One of them, a TV pilot is now in the monthly top list. My advice would be to get at least another evaluation and go from there.

Sadly Philip's experienced has become all too common. People think that getting the magic 8 is breaking in but really it just puts you in this environment where the competition can anonymously sandbag your script. I won't even get into how some writers have lost a small fortune trying to get their score back up while others have had the privilege of having low scores removed.

The site owners have hidden behind the subjectivity excuse from day one, yet paradoxically offer an objective scoring system to rate scripts. Their answer? Guess what? Keep paying for hosting and more evaluations.

It's also worth noting that when you've spent $75 upwards on hosting and an evaluation, the Blacklist have only had to pay a reader $25. Therefore, when you complain, as many do, it's still very cost effective for them to offer a "free" evaluation and encourage you to host another month.

Plus keep in mind a reputable script consultant will get the word out about material they love, and a recommendation from someone like that will carry significantly more weight than some Walmart wage robo-reader.

A bizarre culture exists around the movie industry. Why the gatekeepers act as though they are simply a cut above those on the outside seems beyond me. They dispense hasty judgements on pieces of art based on their surface impressions yet act as though these impressions are beyond reproach. I don't see why people feel this is useful.

Preston: I agree with what you say about “gatekeepers”, and quite frankly, I’ve developed the philosophy of always trusting my own instincts. That doesn’t mean I’m impervious to a bad critique or script coverage; or that I won’t make additions or changes to my work. It means that I’d rather eat spam for the sake of artistic integrity than eat shit for the sake of success. This week, one of my producer colleagues sent over twenty pages of his script notes for a project we’re working on. A lot of what he came up with added value to the work and was incorporated into the screenplay. In my opinion, about twenty percent of what he wrote didn’t add value or in some cases distracted. So I didn’t add that. However, he trusts my judgment and likes the way I incorporated his suggested and in some cases, augmented these ideas. There are very few people who I trust like my colleague in LA. And I can’t stress the importance of reaching out to people to build long term relationships. I would never hang my hat on a website like the Blacklist for coverage or to help forward my career. The only one who gives a F#%k about my career is me. Next week, my colleague will be sending William Morris our script for coverage. This won’t be my first time at that rodeo; and if they tell us the script sucks, so be it. I’ll pine for a few hours, go to Starbucks and start writing again. I’ll tell you why. Because I have a myopic belief in my ability to tell a compelling story and that I’ll continue to connect with people that believe in what I do. This year, I’ve walked away from two independent film projects. I had two reasons for my decision to move on. First, the producers wanted to F#%k with my work too much. Second, they didn’t want to pay me for the privilege of f#%king with my work too much. Now, I’m not unaware of the fact that some things are beyond my control and someone may pay me and then revise my work. And I may not like what they do. It happens all the time. But at least I have the ability to decide whether or not I’m compensated for that possible scenario. As far as “giving the public what they want”; I have no idea what they want and would never write my scripts using that nebulous barometer. I write the kind of movies I would like to see; and hope someone sees it the same way or pretty close to it.

Amen, Phillip. Absolutely agree 100%

@Sylvia: That's why you're a pal.

CJ: I just read your posts and you have the admirable ability to cut through the bullshit.

CJ and I don't always agree, but man his posts are 100% on target!! and no one else in the industry seems willing to point it out bc BL is such a powerful brand.

Indeed, this is the issue I keep seeing too. The Blacklist is acknowledged more as a necessary evil for writers than embraced as giving access to them. Nobody I've spoken to has a good thing to say about it in private. The Blacklist organises parties and few writers show up, because they don't want to be associated with the brand and its elitist values.

I know they also have table reads of one of their feature scripts in NYC and in L.A. You'd have to buy a ticket of course. I wonder how many writers show up for that.

Here's a link to a blog run by a friend of mine who did a Q&A with a Black Lister. It's a couple of years old but touches upon everything mentioned in this thread. It even posts the evaluation/coverage she received from BL. http://wagstaffnet.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-black-list-pay-site-one-writ...

Great thread Gina. This topic seems to have really hit a nerve with S32 members. My own view is that it's a tool that COULD help your career. Just like comps, Inktip, S32 pitches COULD. It's a case of spending your money wisely. However there is no doubt, for whatever reason that the BL is pretty hot at the moment. Industry execs and pros will tell you that.

Gina, that interview is with a writer who's run hot and cold with her opinion of the BlackList depending on her relationship with Franklin Leonard. Not long after this critical Q&A she was invited to do an interview with him for a magazine article, said lots of very nice things, and found herself included in his diversity program. She's one of his biggest groupies now. It's happened with a few of the more vocal critics.

A lot of the execs, managers etc., here on S32 (Labs & Webinars that I've attended) often reference TBL as a 'go to' site when they're looking for scripts.... I agree with Baljinder, "spend your money wisely". I'd say make sure your script is completely polished and ready to go before posting on TBL. As CJ mentioned, it's "not a coverage service", it's just an evaluation, for their purposes, which is to discover the latest greatest and move them to the top of the pile.

Yes, CJ I won't get into particulars but I glaze over that name whenever it creeps to the surface.

Most of us are so far out of the loop, without an agent/manager/lawyer inside the industry to push and represent us. We are stuck to find a way into the 'game' on our own. So we use the imperfect, costly tools that are out there, contests, evaluations, development notes, etc. to perhaps keep our life-juices flowing!? I thrive on the false hope something will happen, but in the end, it's really about finding someone who sees your vision, loves your script and will help you find a way to make it. Or not...?

An established Executive recently said... "Hollywood will say NO because they're afraid to say "I don't know"... mostly because their jobs are on the line if they fail.... it's a risk for them if it's goes south. So never get discouraged and never give up Bob. All we need is one YES... be passionate and believe it will happen.

I thought rock stars and professional athletes got all the groupies.

Oh no, Gina, lots of big screenwriters and even consultants have groupies...they're just not as good looking as the ones the rock stars and athletes get ;-)

IMHO, achieving success as a scriptwriter is contingent on several things; and some of this I covered in another thread earlier this week. Bob, you are correct about having someone that can get your work in the door to people that can put you on the path of getting a film made. Though it may sound mercenary, it’s also a numbers game and it’s about opportunities. It’s about having the intestinal fortitude to brook rejection, while believing that you will ultimately succeed. It’s not about sending out unsolicited query letters and hoping someone will read them. It’s about relentlessly trying to connect with people to try to sell your wares. Most of these attempts will lead down blind alleys. It’s about writing in an efficient, purposeful manner and not being afraid of leaving your comfort zone. It’s about not being afraid to take on a project that may not be in your perceived wheelhouse; but not being afraid to walk away from toxic people and dicey situations. Frankly, I wouldn’t pay a dime for a Blacklist review because I couldn’t care less about what one of their paid readers thinks. Conversely, I have no axe to grind with Blacklist and wish I had a piece of their monthly action. In general, I heavily filter what I read and hear from industry experts and burnouts who profess to know the correct path to success. Those people aren’t paying my bills at the end of the month and often could summon an original thought if their immortal souls depended on it. The correct path to success is whatever works; but I suspect it involves hard work, talent, hustle and luck. I write and hustle my work because I love doing it and if I happen to make a few shekels along the way it’s a blessing. Before tackling screenplays, my first writing effort was a badly edited book about a 19th century historical event. When a mini-series about this same topic was scheduled to be televised, I worked at night for a few weeks revising my book for a Kindle release to coincide with the cable network broadcast. My wife asked me why I was wasting my evenings doing that. I advised her to watch and wait. The first month after the show was televised I received a check from Amazon for nearly five thousand dollars. The next month I got another check for the same amount. My wife said, “Wow, that wasn’t such a waste of time after all.” Once again, I say trust your instincts.

Sylvia: Good point.

We just have to put put what we want to get back. If we chase glory, value ourselves by money, and chose to treat building a career like playing the lottery, then we'll only ever align with those trying to do the same. At the roulette table everyone wants to get rich quick and rub the loser's faces in it, at the soup kitchen everyone wants to make friends and share everything they can manage to offer.

Are BL readers really paid $25 per script? I was a reader for Bluecat and was paid $10 per script. I think for Austin, they don't pay the locals they use but give them free passes to the festival. Most readers aren't getting the lion share of the money paid by entrants.

I doubt they are paid the full $25 but it's possible. As for the comps, they don't pay well at all and really should not be compared to an evaluation service. Austin depends what level you are at, but generally a first round reader is given a quota and if they meet it they get a producer's badge which is worth about $600. I've worked for them for many years and do coverage for them year round, so my compensation reflects that. I'm not local there anymore but I get to go to the festival every year for free and get badges to spare.

Here's a link on the Black List site to the requirements and pay for being a Black List reader. https://blcklst.com/jobs/

Well that answers that question. Honestly, for the perceived weight that these scores carry, $25 is not enough to pay for a professional evaluation. The time it takes to read, and type up cohesive constructive notes, this is barely minimum wage. So what happens? You get what you paid for.

Thanks for the link Gina... very interesting. I paid $25.00 to host and $50 for evaluation. So TBL splits 50/50 with the reader... a bit greedy I'd say...

To all above who felt the reader didn't read your script word for word... it's because they don't get paid enough and I'll reiterate TBL is not a coverage service.... these readers, it seems to me, read 'vertically'... to make it worth their while.

Here's a excerpt taken from what Franklin Leonard wrote on the site: We give our readers scripts in the genres in which they have expressed interest and expect them to read each script in its entirety. Consequently, the speed at which we turn around these evaluations is entirely contingent on the number of requested reads we have at any given moment. We make every effort to turn these around within the first month a script has been submitted. As things stand now, we expect to be able to do so. Here's the link to the post. The excerpt is taken from the OUR READERS section. Notice it says that their readers are expected to read the script in its entirety. https://blcklst.com/about/

Laurie is right when she says the comps don't pay well and shouldn't be compared to an evaluation service. But if you are paying someone minimum wage or less either as a first round reader in a contest or an evaluation service how much of an effort are they going to give? My grandparents worked in sweatshops and made more money. I've had a lot of jobs and most people earning a real salary don't kill themselves for their paychecks. It's unrealistic to expect people making a few dollars an hour to.

Except -- the top-tier competitions, the ones that can actually make a difference and launch someone's career -- do take their hiring of readers very seriously AND they don't hem them in with templated evaluations. That's why they are respected and make a difference to writers and industry decision makers.

The Nicholl Fellowship is considered the cream of the crop. According to their FAQs they received 7,511 scripts in 2014. All scripts get two reads. And they say they pay their readers a "modest fee" which is code for very little money. This is from their FAQ regarding first round readers: Q: Who are the first-round readers? A: First-round readers and quarterfinal-round judges are all involved in the industry, but none of them are Academy members. We assemble a good mix of people. While a majority are writers, some of whom read to pay their bills, we also get a number of producers and development execs as well as those who work in other areas of development or production. The key attributes we look for are skill and experience in reading and evaluating scripts. Actually, in terms of their age range and backgrounds (excluding industry connections), readers resemble Nicholl entrants. I don't know how many readers they have to prevent "tired eyed syndrome" but you have to expect that most of these people have jobs, family obligations, etc so it's easy to get burned out. Add to the mix that of 135 winners from 1986-2014 only 18 scripts have been produced. That's less than 15%. I'm not accusing anyone at Nicholl's of anything unethical. I've never entered their contest due to the sheer number of entrants and I feel my scripts aren't worthy so I have no direct experience with them. I have known people who have and they always have something positive to say. It's a ultra-competitive business, I get that. But a modest fee for hundreds of scripts in a few months, makes me skeptical. It's a lot of work for very little money. I'm sure their impeccable reputation is well-deserved. I wish I could find out how many readers they use and on average how many scripts they are reading. That should be in the FAQs of all contests.

I read at least 500 scripts a year, through a combination of coverage and competitions, this does not count what I read/write as a producer, writer and just for fun. I can say that the top-tier comps, have 2 reads for 1st round. Which thankfully are weeded down by the time they get to me -- after that all rounds are score based. 10% of those thousands move up. The subsequent rounds are not read by the same readers, they are at a higher standard. So do the math. It's the business, if you are on the receiving end of it you read all the time, and it makes you better not worse. Because you are able to suss out when a story isn't working very easily and when one grabs you, you relish it. Nothing makes me happier than to find a great script.

Hey, great advice from everyone, but Philip, I have to go with you and INSTINCT. I have used in the pass, BlueCat, The Page and InkTip and I have no complaints. Didn't pay much, took what criticism I felt was accurate ( instincts ) and disregarded all the rest. I gotta say, I've received great advice from other S32 members and all for nada. Thanks again guys, you know who you are, if you read this post. Gotta go back to writing! Cheers!

When comparing The BlackList to competitions, we have to consider a few factors; When a writer enters a competition, the cost is fixed from day one. Writers aren't expected to pay a monthly fee while the readers get round to evaluating their material. Writers aren't approached with a new deal every time they advance where they are expected to pay for further reads or be booted out the competition. Yes I know you get on the BlackList database from the day you upload your script, however the value of that, given the site filters scripts by design, is questionable. Competitions are generally transparent about who their readers are. Bluecat is an unfortunate example as their Craigslist ads revealed how little they were paying and where they were sourcing first tier readers. But generally, competitions are proud to make it well known who is reading material at the later stages of the competition. The better your script performs, the better a reader you get as you advance. The bigger competitions are also transparent about their scoring scheme giving writers insight into how their scripts have been evaluated. Some competitions, such as Austin FF, even release the detailed reader feedback for no additional cost for scripts reaching the quarter final and above. Scripts that win competitions are often promoted publicly with the original writer handling read requests. This means anyone in the industry who values the competition has knowledge of the material which genuinely "raises the tide for all boats". It also means the writer can decide and track who reads their work. This is opposed to simply being given a download number which could be anything from just the readers themselves to unscrupulous industry members to direct competition. In the case of competitions who actively promote winning scripts to an exclusive portfolio of industry members, they promote who those people are - rather than tell you it's none of your business. Competitions offer substantial rewards to their winners in the form of money, prizes, presentations, awards, and proactive exposure. Talk to any Happy Writers contest winner to learn how much work is put into turning their win into the beginnings of a career. Advancing in a competition is easy to verify and often carries some weight when querying. Even a quarterfinal placement in the bigger competitions is something worth boasting about. Getting a seven on the Blacklist means pretty much nothing, even though you just scraped under what's considered exceptional. Competitions generally operate a more believable "do no harm" system, particularly in the case of Nicholl which brings in a third reader if the first two are polarised. This matters as valuable scripts often do tend to be polarising. If a BlackList reader or industry member rates you script low then it does tremendous harm to everything you've built up. Your position in a competition is safe for years after your success and can be looked up easily at anytime. If you win a competition the organisers do not then require an ongoing monthly payment to keep your script listed. Competitions have certain tones and niche offshoots that can make them better targeted for certain genres. The Bloodlist for example gives horror writers a fair chance of competing against one another on a level playing field. That said The BlackList does offer very specific filtering options in the search and does claim to direct specific genre scripts to readers eager to evaluate that type of material. Competitions such as Nicholl are non-profit-making and part subsidised so the competition's values are put ahead of making money. In some cases, such as Amazon Studios and various and various diversity campaigns have offered free submissions in a bid to give every writer access. I say all this as someone who's performed far better on the Blacklist than I have in competitions. The BlackList was an amazing concept when it started, it really looked like it could be the industry's Robin Hood, but sadly it quickly chose to become the Sheriff of Nottingham. Sadly, as its popularity increases, we are in danger of moving toward a situation where it becomes the gatekeeper for Hollywood and many writers are priced out of gaining any sort of access. This makes me all the more thankful for Stage 32 which has never charged me a penny and given me the freedom and access to drive my own career. It also makes me all the more appreciative of those tiny overworked prodcos, managers, and agents offering an open submission policy and paying their readers what they deserve. It makes me respect the script consultants out there who have to work harder and harder, giving out more in a bid to give detailed notes based in experience to writers eager to improve. It causes me to realise just how charitable it is when industry members get together to offer open diversity programs that any writer can freely enter. I now look at those sites offering free feedback such as Simply Scripts or peer review systems such as the now close ZeoTrope and see how incredible that is. And this all combines to truly make me grateful for the thing that matters the most - community, something which is sadly completely lacking when you bring every writer down to nothing but an average score.

Well done CJ. That's precisely what I meant when I said that competitions should not be compared to an "evaluation" service.

Bradley felt that maybe the evaluator at TBL hadn't read his entire script even though that is what he paid for and that maybe he should try contests. I feel that with the large number of entrants in either contests or evaluation services like TBL, it's hard to believe that your entire script is being read and that maybe parts are skimmed or not read at all. TBL states that they "expect" their readers to read the entire script. Of course they can't guarantee that. No one can. And with the size and low pay of some evaluation services and contests, and the fact that most people have busy schedules that their script isn't read in it's entirely and the notes/evaluation can reflect that. Laurie you mentioned that first round readers at Austin had to meet a quota before getting a badge. Would you know how many scripts they have to read before they can get the badge? The early round readers are locals who don't have your pedigree so getting the badge and attending the festival for free is their motivation for reading all those scripts and not necessarily finding a great script. At least that is what it seems like. I know now they provide a paragraph of notes now to the entrants, but I thought in the past that early round readers only had to read the first 30 pages of the script and if they liked it, then they were required to read the entire script and explain why the script should advance. I think that used to be in their FAQs. Please let me know, if that is correct. It's just hard to believe with large volumes of scripts, little to no pay, and busy schedules that all of these scripts are being read completely whether its an evaluation service or a contest. I tend to be skeptical of contests and evaluation services in general as they seem like money grabs with few success stories.

In my experience BL evaluations have varied wildly in terms of quality. Some of their readers put an enormous amount of effort in and clearly invest time in trying to find the good in the material. Some readers I've found to be curt, vague, unable to even get the name of the protagonist right, and in some cases plain insulting for no reason. Sadly BL almost always side with their readers and toss out free reviews rather than sacking bad readers, pulling their reviews, and refunding the money to the writers. A writer I know waited weeks for a review which made little sense, it later transpired the reader had evaluated a different script! Generally you only have to look at the writer's communities to see where issues lie. You see complaints about the odd competition now and then, but a lot of forums have been rife with ongoing BlackList complaints since the paid service started.

Exactly CJ. Thank you for sharing your experiences and words of wisdom. For the first time ever, I entered a bunch of competitions this past Spring. They all had deadlines, one after the other. I took the plunge because I knew it was time to see how I'd fare in all this. It was my goal for 2015... to step out into the light. I placed as a quarter-finalist in 3 of what are considered the top competitions excluding Nicholl. I paid for feedback from all of them. All the Notes were very similar and I took them to heart and did the required rewrites. The interesting part was I didn't really believe I would even get that far... I did it for the feedback from each... otherwise, I thought, what's the point of entering. It was an investment I was willing to make for myself, as risky as it seemed at the time. I'm happy I met and surpassed my goal for 2015 by placing... I felt validated and inspired to keep going... and learned a lot from this experience. Even if I hadn't placed, I knew the Notes would be extremely helpful. And CJ, as yourself, I'm proud to be part of the Stage 32 family and community. I appreciate and honor the friendships and advice from my peers. Being a member since 2012, I can't imagine where I'd be if Stage 32 didn't exist. So to all in this thread, thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences. That's what it's all about... caring and sharing.

Several years ago, someone started a thread on Done Deal Pro about a why he doesn't like contests. You can read it here . http://messageboard.donedealpro.com/boards/showthread.php?t=56014 The contest was "Just Effing Entertain me" and the reader was Marguax Foley. Does anyone remember that? Basically, a reader bragged about reading 75 scripts in 3 hours because in reality she only read a few pages of each script or in some cases if they writer wasn't from NY or LA she wouldn't read it at all. It was given a pass as it was assumed the script wasn't very good. If you scroll down the comments you will see one posted by moviequill he writes "judged for a contest for two years. I had a week to read 100+ scripts and post comments on each one. There just is not enough time to read an entire 100+ page script if you know it's crap from Page 1 or even Page 10, because I gave everyone the first dozen to show me that had it... it is not worth the time-wasting gamble giving a bad writer the benefit of the doubt to pick up his game from Page 50 onwards. You have to come out of the gate firing on all cylinders right away -- how many pages would a studio exec or "reader" give them? Saying that, if I think the writing is decent, and has an actual chance, I read the whole thing -- mainly due to the fact I just freed up some time by dumping the chum back into the water, and I can take my time on it..." While this is not a A Lister contest by any means, it's anecdotal evidence to support my statement that there isn't the time or the compensation to read every single word of every single script. Most judges judge for more than one contest. This is on top of their normal workload and family life. It's the same with evaluation services. They don't just read for that one service and that's it. A listers (comps and evaluations services) aren't immune to this. It's all too much work for too little pay and not enough hours in the day to do it all.

Yes there are some real horror stories out there with contests too. However, since it's a more competitive environment, the better ones do tend to float to the top. Sadly quality readers have found their rates gradually reduced over the past few years. It's a very sorry state of affairs.

It's smart to be skeptical in regards to the money grubbers preying upon writers, but some due diligence can easily identify the shady deals vs legitimate help and furthering of a career -- note that I say career, it's the ones that are in this as a hobby to see if they can win the lottery or think somehow their idea and vision is so brilliant it doesn't merit any genuine feedback that don't do the due diligence. To answer your question Gina, every reader situation is different and I can promise you not every 1st round reader at AFF is local. However, Austin's film community is vibrant -- in many regards more so than LA, so to look down upon 'locals' is not a fair assessment. There are numerous writing organizations there that are very active and there is a constant stream of top notch continuing education series. In fact, to bring this back around to the blacklist, it was me in a screenwriting group there who recommended bringing the owner of the BL to Austin to meet with us. THIS WAS BEFORE HIS EVALUATION SERVICE LAUNCHED, when he was still a creative executive, known only for the annual list. He was astounded he had never been to Austin NOR knew about the wealth of screenwriters there and the festival dedicated to writers. The following year he launched 'the service' at the Austin Film Festival. Trust me, I'm reminded of my small part in that evolution on a regular basis -- but we move on. I don't begrudge anyone from making good money from a good idea and the founder of the BL is no doubt a highly intelligent person who knows this business, but as others have said -- the business model does not favor writers first and foremost, yes there are a ton of 'opt-in' programs for fellowships etc that are exclusive to TBL and give a general perception of wanting writers to succeed. But frankly, [ ;-) ] if the writer's interests were first and foremost then the evaluation service would be more transparent -- as it is here on stage 32.

Gina, I do remember the done deal issue. DDP fosters many nasty threads -- many, perpetrated by 'the groupie.' That was a personal vendetta again Julie of JEEM. Her competition was small but AGAIN, it was one that launched careers. I'm happy to say that I discovered a writer through one of her contests, pushed his script through and he has been steadily employed ever since, currently on Rodriguez's Dusk to Dawn. Point is. it's fair to say that most of us do this because we love to do it -- not for a few bucks or a discounted badge.

I wasn't trying to make disparaging comments about the first round readers at Austin. So I apologize if that was what it seemed. I'm not from that area so I'm unfamiliar with the community. The question I asked was do you know how many scripts the first round readers are required to read to get the badge? And was it true that they only had to read the first 30 pages of the script unless they wanted to advance the script to the 2nd round? Also, do you read every single word of every one of the 500+ scripts you are judging each and every year? Most people are paying for and expecting their script to be read in its entirety and it seems like there isn't enough time to do that.

Yes, I remember that part too about JEEM. That was unfortunate to say the least.

My answer got buried in my response -- the quota varies from reader to reader. I do read scripts in their entirety, but I score them as I go. I can tell by the first page if the writer knows how to format and structure and if the premise is good. Most premises are good but 90% fail in execution.

ok. thanks. Good to know.

Andrew Spear has brought up good points. If you haven't had a reading of your script with actors or whomever, you haven't had the opportunity to hear your script, hear the dialogue and find out what is missing, and perhaps get a sense of that missing emotional element that is confounding you. But it seems like you are in good shape for the first draft. You've received a good note on the language and you can bump that up. I think that note on the emotional stake refers to what is underneath that goal for financial success. What is in the psychology of the central character that needs this success? How will this change the character when he obtains success, or at least how does he think it will change him? This will show what he lacks or believes he lacks. The fact that his best friend gets killed is perhaps a plot point, and it is emotional for him, and how he reacts to it will say a good deal about your character. But what's his emotional/psychological flaw that propels him on for success? Hope that helps :-)

I think Cynthia's touched on something important here, that readers may be good readers but aren't good note writers....maybe they don't know, in the moment right after a read, what exactly it is they think the script needs. You need to look deeply into the aspects of your script they mention...maybe there's something there that they feel they're missing that you need to look at from a new angle. I know I've felt that way after swapping scripts with people. Sometimes it will be days later, and it will finally come to me, that one aspect of the script that truly needs re-working, or just exactly which character made it magical. Anyway, wrt to the blacklist: it was a summer stage32 'free seminar', I can't remember which one, but the speaker implied that tbl success isn't based necessarily just on the merits of your script. If you do well at another competition, you have a BETTER chance of doing well on tbl. It appears a spec will get a certain amount of 'buzz' around it as it goes up the competition ladder, and that if that happens, you'd better be ready with an extensive library of material, because you may only be 'hot' (and sell scripts) for a short while before you fall back into obscurity. (I've been reading a lot of Stephanie Palmer's 'Goodinaroom' material lately). Oh, and yes, I've given Mr. Lawrence my money on a few occasions. This whole conversation makes me feel like there's too many damn services trying to suck money out of screenwriters. It's vampiric.

Sarah - it sounds like the conversation you are referring to is in reference to the annual black list which is entirely different from the evaluation service, and if the summary of this thread could be written it would be that that is an intentional 'vampiric' marketing tactic that they are all too happy to see happen. Do your due diligence people, the services that blast you with expertise are most often NOT in the business today but were at some point in the past, so a cursory glance at the experience makes it seem legit when in fact they are NOT working in the industry but more than happy to take your money based on what was going on when they were.

Wow. CJ. Thanks, you really covered all bases have. Kudos to everyone as well.

BL is a waste of time, imo... it's setup as a "cash cow" moreso than a beneficial service for writers. It's crazy to keep paying a monthly fee in hopes of someone reading and requesting your script. With due diligence you can create your own lists of prodcos, agents and managers and query them for free. Or try other services like VPF and pay a nominal fee for detailed feedback from a professional consultant or producer/reader/dev. executive... I tried one blast service, and got more responses with feed back than I have with many other services like BL.

I had something like that happen to me. I enter Scriptapalooza and made the quarterfinalist. However, my scores were low. I couldn't understand how you can place and get a score card low. However, I did have to email them a few time to send the card. Maybe the forgot to do it and just made one up just to get it over with. It was confusing.... the more I learn I feel this whole industry is a scam ~

Hey Brad! Therein lies the fundamental problem with what is essentially anonymous reading. WHO is reading your material? There's a distinct lack of accountability and I think we've rectified the issues with our own system. I would urge you to try our coverage service - where YOU CHOOSE exactly which executive reads your script. If you're not sure which exec is best suited for your project, tell me a bit about it and I'll pair you up with the perfect match. Feel free to email me at erik@stage32.com. Also, for dialogue, don't worry about offending anyone. However your characters would have spoken during whatever time and place they're in - do that. A white guy wrote SELMA - it's OK to be authentic.

Dear Brad, I'd vouch for Erik helping you out. He's great and is also a great writer. All the best and wish you tons of successes in all your projects in 2016.

Dan, an' therein is the answer - it's a talk fest. That's why I have such a difficult time assembling crews and getting projects done. The world is full of talkers - not doers.

Last year I sent in one of my scripts to the Blacklist to post. I thought it would help if I received some evaluations. I ordered 4. The first 3 were okay, but the 4th was such a bad eval that I just took my script off The Black List since it lowered my score significantly. Would you believe this script received a “Recommended” Coverage from Scriptapalooza? It did. Well, you’d think I would have learned - but I didn’t. So, I thought it was the script’s fault and I’d give them another try. I wish I would have read your posts prior to that. My new screenplay received a “Recommended” coverage from WeScreenplay. From TBL, I received a 6, which I thought was okay. But the next reader gave me a “4”. My scripts received “Recommended” coverages, how is that possible I would receive such a low grade from the Black List? I give up. I’m never using them again.

Erma. People who are evaluating your screenplays there probably don't know crap or they wouldn't be doing that for a living.

Erna. Sorry about the typo. Every time I click on edit here it seems to take me somewhere else. It is a glitch in their program.

Bradley, you can't buy the evaluation and not host your script in the meantime. This is kind of evil, because, as you correctly said, nobody will even know your script is there if you don't score high enough. So you're basically paying to wait for your score...

My personal experience with TBL: received three "8s" from the get-go. Earned some free evals. Incorporated changes, scores dropped to "6s". Incorporated feedback, paid for two more, and scores dropped to "4's". Feedback through the TBL system is worthless. It is a thermometer for trends, not a tool to be used for improving writing. Invest in S32 coverage (shameless plug). It will help you move forward and won't make you feel bad for writing material that you want to write.

Interesting blog post: https://medium.com/@6StringMerc/explaining-my-dislike-of-the-black-list-...

Blacklist is a tool for getting views on your scripts if you raise through the ranks. Of course it's just like a script competition. If you don't raise somewhere to the top it will be money spent on just this statement "not good enough". I agree that a lot of it depends on trends too and what trend is in the current year. But it also depends on readers and genre. Some genres just do really badly on some sites. It's also a bad site for reviews. There are probably a thousand sites better for that, at least.

"This is a story about an African-American character, and I certainly didn't want to offend anyone by trying to "write ethnic". "

- But here it at least for me would tell me that I didn't have the right mindset while writing the story. Because when people tell me I held back in some area of the script I know for a fact that it influenced the rest of my story. It means I held back all the way in some ways and that my story is weak and not powerful enough to influence readers. So for me this would right away set off all my alarm bells. But maybe you are not that type of writer who does mediocre work when you are holding back in one area? I don't know if such writers exist or not.

I have no direct experience with BL except taking a pass on the site a long time ago after vetting and finding many complaints found on the net. Take the following with a grain of salt.

I do know BL readers are paid a whopping $40/script. They list for reader jobs and demand a year or more of studio experience.

Consider this from the perspective from a person being paid a pittance. A proper and fair eval read takes about two hours - reading and some brief notes. That would be $20/hour. What if the reader reads only the first ten pages, or even the first thirty, and writes brief notes. That's, at most, thirty minutes or the time-pay equivalent of $50/script.

I don't get the sense BL cares about the quality of the notes as long as the reader supplies them. Further, the sense is most BL readers do not read the entire script - not even a quick scan.

• "Basically, NOBODY is going to download your script, unless it gets an 8 rating or higher."

  Yes, this is how the world works. You really cannot expect anything else. If your script is not good people won't want to read it. That's not a fault with Blacklist or mean producers. That's just because people want to make good and profitable movies that other people will enjoy watching. I think we as writers need to stop blaming Blacklist and start writing better scripts. Blacklist is not making any producer not read a script. They choose to read some scripts and not read other scripts. Again, that's just how things work.

Hi Jerry, you are also able to give an eval of the evaluator, yes? That's what I seem to remember. Maybe that can help get rid of readers who are doing a subpar job.

Have you checked out zoetrope? If you read scripts, others will read your script. Free.

I find BL to be hit or miss. Across the three scripts I have had on their site for various lengths of time and number of evals, they are all around a 6.5 average. I've received a couple of 8's, mostly 7's, a few 6's, and the occasional (and usually perplexing) 5. For the most part, I feel pretty good about this.

However... On a couple of occasions I've had the same draft of the same script evaluated by two or more people on the site and had quite divergent results (I know, script evaluation is an inherently subjective game, but...). This last time I received a 7 with some really positive feedback and a 5, also with positive feedback and a hint of "totally missed the point." It makes me wish there was a way for them to give some background about the reader and where they come from.

Outside of BL I've found much more valuable feedback and have gotten a lot further with friends and others in the industry than I ever have on BL.

My point is that over the 4 years this thread has continued I think the bottom line has been and is still true of BL -- They're hit or miss, and not probably not a great feedback or marketing tool. I would save the money.

Recently I've decided to try a few of the coverage services here on this site, and I'm looking forward to seeing how that goes.

have got 8s for my scripts and still no-one download or bites. A high score is no promise of success or a door opening. You dont know who is doing an evaluations either. It's a blind date between your script and a reader. Is the read a uni grad getting $15 per script? Is it a retired English teacher looking for something to do in life? Is it a bona-fide exec with great credits? I no longer use them. I only get coverage from reputable people or services where there is transparency of who is reading it.

Another zombie thread.

Zombie discussion yet still going on within every community. Six years of constant dissatisfaction from writers yet people queuing up at the door with wads of cash in their hands. Not saying the Black List is ineffective or a necessarily a bad choice but, at this point, not being aware of the casino aspect of the system and issues regarding the quality of evaluations is on the customer.

I suspect Bradley has recovered and moved on from the BL critique.

CJ: I agree with you. The BL price tag, given the unknown variables, makes them a total casino.

Feeling really disappointed

I received a 7 and…..0 views!

Not worth at all

Thanks for sharing. It’s an eye opener and proves that my guts feeling about TBL is correct that isn’t worth listing and paying there! Why didn’t you consider a free site such as Coverfly, in addition to Stage 32?

I'm not trying to cause an issue, but I know a LOT of people who've said that the Black List is basically a waste of money!

Anyone reading this is free to research the topic more, and probably should before paying out.

It seems too many sites cash in on the hopes and dreams of writers and, by now, wannabe scribes should really be very, very wary of people who want money.

Oops, I've not used this site for a long while, so didn't realise I was resurrecting something! Sorry.

Hmm.interesting ..I have something there and you're right no reaction... but then the same with InkTip. Perhaps I need to work on being a better writer?

I have used The Black List in the past. Their business model - unless things have changed since I was there - is based on the writers paying monthly to host their scripts and then paying for as many reads/reviews as it takes to stay in the top tier to try to get noticed. And in my experience, the reviews/notes were not worth the money. It is more of a commercially-based club than it is a community, IMO.